Episode 122

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Published on:

20th Aug 2025

Inside the Scandal: What Really Happened in the ASU Point-Shaving Scheme | Ep. 122 with Joe Gagliano

In this special four-year anniversary episode of the No Grey Areas podcast, I sit down with our very own podcast founder, Joe Gagliano—the man behind the largest point-shaving scandal in NCAA sports history. To celebrate over 120 thought-provoking episodes of the No Grey Areas Podcast, we're bringing it full circle in this exclusive episode. In this candid conversation, Joe shares the story of how one phone call pulled him into a multimillion-dollar point-shaving scheme that shook the sports world and landed him in the national spotlight.

But this episode isn’t just about scandal—it’s about redemption, risk, and the power of integrity. Joe unpacks the details of what drove his decision-making at 22, the environments that shaped him, and the hard-earned wisdom he now lives by.

If you’ve ever felt tempted to take shortcuts or compromise your values, this cautionary tale will hit home. Because, as Joe says, it’s “black or white”, there are “no grey areas”.

WEBSITE: https://www.nogreyareaspodcast.com/

INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/nogreyareas_gagliano/

FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/NoGreyAreas

TIK TOK: https://www.tiktok.com/@nogreyareasgagliano

EMAIL: info@nogreyareas.com

YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbnC2rjEumGJhqy54qazFFw


No Grey Areas is a motivational podcast with captivating guests centered around how our choices humanize, empower, and define who we become. This podcast is inspired by the cautionary tale, No Grey Areas, written by Joseph Gagliano. Learn more about the truth behind his story involved with sports' biggest scandal at https://www.nogreyareas.com/

Transcript
::

Host

In this special four year anniversary episode of the No grey Areas podcast, I sit down with our very own founder, Joe Gagliano, the man behind the largest point shaving scandal that we know of in sports history. From the high stakes world of trading to a phone call that changed his life forever. Joe shares how a risky decision at 22 years old led to a federal investigation, national headlines and ultimately, a lifelong lesson on integrity.

::

Host

You've seen the headlines, now hear the whole story from the mastermind himself, Joe Gagliano. Let's dive in.

::

Pat McCalla

Joe Gagliano, welcome back to no grey Areas. Your podcast.

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Joe Gagliano

It's great to have you on here.

::

Pat McCalla

We wanted to have you back on because it's been, it's been a little while, but we. When this drops, it'll actually be four years from the very first podcast. Isn't that crazy? And you were the first guest. And so we wanted to have you back on. Our audience has actually grown a bunch. Even the people that heard your story and really why we do this podcast and why the book that you wrote, the movie that we're doing,

::

Pat McCalla

some people heard that four years ago, but our audience has grown a lot, and there's a lot that haven't heard it.

::

Pat McCalla

Even those that did probably forgot a lot of it. So we wanted to go through that again. But man, Joe, it's been kind of fun to see how this has grown, hasn't it? Because we're it.

::

Pat McCalla

I think by the time this drops, we'll have over 130 episodes we've done. We've gone from a few thousand subscribers on, on YouTube to probably 300,000 plus by the time this drops.

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Pat McCalla

So it's seen a lot of growth, a lot of impact. And I know that's one of the reasons you wanted to do it.

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Pat McCalla

But to to go back and start getting your story, let me set it up this way.

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Joe Gagliano

Well.

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Joe Gagliano

Let me chime in for one second, though, because, you know,

::

Joe Gagliano

when you guys asked me to come back on here a couple weeks ago and, yesterday, I was thinking about

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Joe Gagliano

the story and I was thinking about some things, and I went back and I watched that first episode we did almost four years ago.

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Joe Gagliano

It's like, I didn't have all the grey hair I have now, and I don't know if it's because of you and.

::

Joe Gagliano

Or more grey hair.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah, but, man, it's crazy how far we've come with this, with this channel and the purpose behind it. And, so flip and proud of what you've done.

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Joe Gagliano

you know, I throw compliments around like, manhole covers,

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Joe Gagliano

and I think I told you a couple weeks ago I was watching one episode that you did recently, and,

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Joe Gagliano

you know, I go back and forth between

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Joe Gagliano

Patrick that David and Joe Rogan and and that I watch ours, obviously with no grey areas, but it's, it's really cool to see how far you've evolved as well as a, as the face of the, of the franchise, so to speak.

::

Joe Gagliano

And

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Joe Gagliano

the face of the podcast and, and the messaging and how you interact with people and the questions. So that's been great to see. And obviously, what Riley's been doing behind the scenes on the production side and what Payton does on the marketing side, you guys have really blown up the channel. The production quality's amazing. The messaging is incredible.

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Joe Gagliano

I do feel like we're making a change. Some of the some of the comments and some of the feedback we get

::

Joe Gagliano

is meaningful.

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Pat McCalla

Yeah.

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Joe Gagliano

it comforts when we look at the bottom line of a podcast and we see how much we're burning on an annual basis to actually know that there's a purpose for it.

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Joe Gagliano

So it's a good thing. Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

Well thank you Joe. That that that means a lot. But you bring up something that I think is so important for our audience to understand, because making a difference is the very first time I met you, when you reach out to me and we went to lunch that time

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Pat McCalla

talked about that. And then I've heard you say that so often.

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Pat McCalla

That's, that's

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Pat McCalla

kind of a key thing for you, isn't it? Is to make a difference.

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Joe Gagliano

It is. And you know what, Pat? I've never actually asked you. Do you think we're making a difference? It's you know, we've been doing the podcast now for it's coming up on for years. And obviously you've been involved in the foundation and you're involved in what we're doing in the business side as well.

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Joe Gagliano

You know, sometimes we get so lost in the noise and, you know, whether we're getting punched in the gut on a daily basis with something that didn't go as we planned, or something that does go well and it it the deal gets done successfully and, and we just forget about it because that's what we thought we were going to

::

Joe Gagliano

do. And we really don't

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Joe Gagliano

enjoy the minor victories. It's what you always tell me to do all the time. And

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Joe Gagliano

you know, if I kick it back to you, do you think we're actually making a difference?

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Pat McCalla

Oh, 100%

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Pat McCalla

I get the privilege of,

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Pat McCalla

sometimes showing up in a coffee shop around town or dropping into a place, and I run into someone that said, like, hey, I listen to the podcast and, you know, the most people won't ever write and tell you this

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

so you don't get to hear. It's kind of like a speaker on a stage, you know, maybe there's a thousand people in the audience.

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Pat McCalla

You don't get to hear how that might have impacted them. But I get to run into some people and they'll start talking about like how it impacted them or what they said. Or I always remember that one podcast we had, about the first responder and that organization he has and that,

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Pat McCalla

there was, first responder that reached out to him and he shared

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Joe Gagliano

it.

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah. And

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Pat McCalla

it was amazing how this guy,

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Pat McCalla

you know, was kind of at his rope's end. And because you listen to the podcast and that that particular episode was going to reach out, get some help. So we know there's those kind of stories out there, and there's a lot more

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Joe Gagliano

It's a little things like that that actually fill my cup and

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Joe Gagliano

Make keep

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Joe Gagliano

pushing to.

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Joe Gagliano

Keep things moving forward. It's like it's like a round of golf. And you know, my game is

::

Joe Gagliano

probably like your game.

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Joe Gagliano

Not not non-existent.

::

Joe Gagliano

Right. But,

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Joe Gagliano

you know, you could play 17 bad holes and just rip up the course and just think up the course, I should say. And then you hit one good shot. An 18 and you want to go back the next day. So it's the same thing with the same thing with the podcast.

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Joe Gagliano

know, we don't have any negative comments.

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Joe Gagliano

I mean, there's really I don't think people go out and and spew negativity, with what we're doing. But, you know, people don't really go out and say nice things either. But every now and then when you do get something positive,

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Joe Gagliano

it fills your cup and keeps you going forward.

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Pat McCalla

Yep. And you're right.

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Pat McCalla

It's perfect analogy with golf. You could be just stinking it up. But you hit that

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah,

::

Pat McCalla

get it perfect and it goes straight and it's down and and it makes you come back.

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

you're right.

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Pat McCalla

so audience send us some good comments every once in a while, tell us what's how it's impacting you.

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Pat McCalla

Because it's really what it was really your vision. It was your vision. It's one of the reasons you wrote the book. It's one of the reasons that we're making a movie. It's one of the reasons that we did this podcast is to make a difference, to take your story, which we're going to get into a second, to take your story

::

Pat McCalla

and use it for good.

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Pat McCalla

And we're seeing that. I think we're going to see it even more so in the in the coming years as our audience is about to hear. But let me back up

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Pat McCalla

and start this to to retell your story a little bit, which is a fascinating, amazing story. We actually just got, the script this last week of the movie that, there's a rewrite of it and

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Pat McCalla

it's going to be so good.

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Pat McCalla

But it's the reason is, is because it's a great

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Joe Gagliano

story. Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

and it's a story of, failure. It's a story of mistakes. It's a story of playing in no grey areas. It's a story of redemption. But let me back up for our audience now and started by asking you this.

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Pat McCalla

How big of a bag do you need to fit $5 million

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Joe Gagliano

in?

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Joe Gagliano

Now,

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Pat McCalla

some of our audiences don't know your story. You're going, why are you starting there? You're going to hear audience.

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah, it's

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Joe Gagliano

funny. You've always been intrigued by that. And really, you know, I've.

::

Joe Gagliano

Never had a bag with $5 million at the joke.

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah. So

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Joe Gagliano

bigger size duffle bag, but it didn't all fit in there. So I had I did have a backpack with me as well.

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Pat McCalla

Wait, that makes it even

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Joe Gagliano

Duffel bag

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Pat McCalla

full of cash and a backpack?

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah, I didn't even know that until. Yeah, yeah.

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Joe Gagliano

I didn't really write about the duffel bag in the book.

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Joe Gagliano

you say about a million bucks weighs about 20 pounds. In actual physical weight. So you look at 5 million bucks, obviously would be 100 pounds. It's a it's a lot of weight to be towing around, but.

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Pat McCalla

carrying 100 pounds of cash.

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah. It's a it definitely can fit I think I maybe got three and a half, maybe 4 million bucks inside of the duffel bag itself and the rest just thrown inside of a of a backpack and

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Joe Gagliano

jumped on a plane and called it a day.

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Pat McCalla

you went through security with this?

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Joe Gagliano

well, TSA back in the 90s. This was, what, 94?

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Pat McCalla

Yeah,

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Joe Gagliano

TSA wasn't nearly what it is today.

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Joe Gagliano

I think they were still I think they were still smoking on airplanes at that point.

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Joe Gagliano

And they go right up to the gate to.

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah. Yeah. So it was nothing like it is today. And I don't even think you had to take off your shoes or any other nonsense that they make you do now.

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Joe Gagliano

But

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Pat McCalla

they look in the bag

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Joe Gagliano

Sure. Yeah, they look in the bag. And, you know, I distinctly remember the the TSA agent looking at me, looking at the bag, looking at me again. And I said, man, I'm going to Vegas.

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Joe Gagliano

Or I just came back from Vegas and, either one,

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Joe Gagliano

and there's nothing they can do. It's, it's it's certainly not illegal. It's just paper.

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Joe Gagliano

Bringing it outside the country would be another issue. But but keeping it domestically inside the States was a real problem.

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Pat McCalla

Yeah. It's such a great story because.

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Pat McCalla

Again, the very first time I met you, you were. I didn't know you at all,

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

You reached

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Pat McCalla

out to me because.

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Pat McCalla

was speaking at a place that you, a church that you would attend. And so you reached out and it was a bigger church. And so we meet for lunch, and you brought your book and you kind of tell your story.

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Pat McCalla

And I've told you this many times, but you're telling me parts of the story where I'm sitting there going like, okay, internally

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Joe Gagliano

Your pants in $5 million, you.

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Pat McCalla

bag because you said that to me. I went out in the parking lot, I open up my computer and I googled you, and I start looking into it, and I start going, like.

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Pat McCalla

just really happened.

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah,

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Pat McCalla

This story really happened. And so audience again, I just

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Pat McCalla

you're going to hear this story now and, and when this movie comes out and we hope you get the book no grey areas and read it. It is an amazing story. But so again, let me back up. Now

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Pat McCalla

call these hinge moments in life or inciting incidents. If you watch a movie in the first few minutes of a movie, there's an inciting incident and it what's what launches the character on a quest or a journey like the life will never be the same.

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Pat McCalla

So

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Pat McCalla

in Braveheart, his wife is killed, launches on a quest. This journey to him same

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Pat McCalla

in Finding Nemo, Nemo's mom is killed and he's captured.

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Joe Gagliano

You went from Braveheart to Finding Nemo.

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Joe Gagliano

Trying to cover the gamut. Did a good job with that. Okay, right.

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Pat McCalla

But you had your inciting incident or your hinge moment. One of them was when you took a phone call at 23

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Joe Gagliano

and we're in:

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Joe Gagliano

I still hear that voice in my head. I it's weird to it. You know, my brother went to school at Arizona State

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Joe Gagliano

and I was trading bond futures at the Chicago Board of Trade.

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Joe Gagliano

dropped out of college at the age of 21, went right to the Board of Trade, started clerking for a

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Joe Gagliano

very successful independent bond trader down there. And,

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Joe Gagliano

Pat, it was legalized theft.

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Joe Gagliano

it's crazy how.

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Joe Gagliano

What you saw in the paper.

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Joe Gagliano

Oh, gosh. Well, the bond markets, the most expensive market there is to trade. And, you know, millions and tens of millions are moving every minute down there. And you got guys that are absolutely destroying it. You've got corporate, you've got institutions, you've got, you know, so there's a lot of things that as a young, impressionable kid that grew up as a son of a police officer in Chicago, that, yeah, we had some organized crime in our family with the same name as Gagliano, but we never, never went down that road.

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Joe Gagliano

Now, now, my my father said,

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Joe Gagliano

you better run the other direction, or you better forget that you have a father. If you ever think about doing that. Not sense. Right.

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Pat McCalla

So here, Ted, your dad taught you integrity and good

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Joe Gagliano

Definitely. Definitely.

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Joe Gagliano

You know, would not tolerate, And that's why it's so internally, it's a challenge for me to know that I violated the integrity and compromised myself, completely contradicting and disobeying the.

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Joe Gagliano

The lessons that my parents taught us growing up. Because we.

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Pat McCalla

especially your dad, just the most important person

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah. It's.

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Joe Gagliano

So here I am. You know, I assume to be 57, just beating myself up whenever I start thinking about the story, and I start thinking about the journey of my life, about how I allowed myself to be that week, and how I allowed myself to compromise my integrity despite all the blessings that I had at a young age.

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Joe Gagliano

I mean,

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Joe Gagliano

you know, we've had people on the podcast and, you know, people and I know people that would

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Joe Gagliano

s. My dad just passed back in:

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Joe Gagliano

you know, aunts, uncles, nephews and nieces.

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Joe Gagliano

We had a great family values, great family principles. You know, we weren't wealthy. We were lower to middle, middle class type of thing. But

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Joe Gagliano

we had structure. We had structure.

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Joe Gagliano

and, you know, I had every chance in the world for education. I had people I can go to to lean on for advice, for good mentorship.

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Joe Gagliano

And I still allowed myself to compromise my integrity at the age of 23. And I always say

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Joe Gagliano

when I really play this thing back and I go on my walks and I think about different things in my life that help me stems from being a product of that environment. And I say the environment being the Board of Trade, because when I went down there at the age of 21, I mean, it

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Joe Gagliano

in or basically it had.

::

Joe Gagliano

Everything that I could possibly imagine as that would intrigue me. I mean, risk to reward fast paced action, crazy dollars behind it because we're all motivated by money. People that say our money doesn't really. Yeah, okay. We're all motivated to have some sort of success for ourselves and for our families. And

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Joe Gagliano

and so, you know, I think being a product of that environment, after about a year and a half or two years down on the on the trading floor, when that phone call that you just referenced came in, I was ready in my mind, in the grey area.

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Pat McCalla

Yeah. You had been playing in the grey area for a

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

You know, Pat, I know I've said this to you before, and when someone says.

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Joe Gagliano

Honest, ethical, successful trader.

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Joe Gagliano

Yeah, it's the big it's the biggest oxymoron you could possibly come up with because there is no honest, ethical, successful trader.

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Joe Gagliano

I didn't

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Pat McCalla

know that until you explained it to me. Like what went on down there and everything and how the games that are played and

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Joe Gagliano

oh my gosh, it

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Pat McCalla

is.

::

Joe Gagliano

the retail versus the wholesale market. You know, in retail being you sit at home behind your computer and saying, hey, I'm going to go to E-Trade number to buy a bond. Okay, good. You see a bid, you see an ask.

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Joe Gagliano

I don't know. People really understand what the market makers do.

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Joe Gagliano

When you see a bid and you see an ask and you see that price differential, two, three, 4%, whatever it may be.

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Joe Gagliano

But that's how much they're taking advantage of you up front,

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Joe Gagliano

Back then it was different because you didn't have live computer trades back then with idiots like me that were inside the pit and a retail order came in.

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Joe Gagliano

We were charge ten, 20, 40 bucks to trade that paper. Now you're doing it online for, you know, you're getting real time execution, at a price, at a price point that you actually want to do with that, make that trade at. And they're charging you next to nothing to do it because there are no more traders making trades.

::

Joe Gagliano

Everything's computerized now. But back then it was literally, as I said before, it was it was legalized theft. And so that was the environment that I played in Pat. And that was, you know, when I started trading my own account and I started trading Knight Bonds, I mean, I had the guy on my left side who, traded

::

Joe Gagliano

retail paper for Prudential Base.

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Joe Gagliano

I had the guy in

::

Joe Gagliano

my left side who traded the bond paper for Bank of China. I mean, if I could make money between those two guys,

::

Joe Gagliano

I probably needed to replace myself at that point or find a different career. Yeah, but it was literally legalized theft, because all I would do is watch the market.

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Joe Gagliano

I knew where they had to buy with their buy points were and turn around and beat them and sell right to and sell right back to them. So it was that's why when that phone call came in,

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Joe Gagliano

you know, when I started trading with X amount of money in the account and then

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Joe Gagliano

90, 100, and 20, 180 days later, you just see this account continually growing digits behind it.

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Joe Gagliano

At the age of 22, 23 years old, you feel invincible.

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Pat McCalla

So if you don't mind me. Yeah. So you basically grew up middle class,

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Joe Gagliano

right? That you would be a middle

::

Pat McCalla

class family in Chicago. Your dad's a police officer, like you said. And then you're 21, you drop out of school and you start working here, and you start dabbling in grey areas. But you went from a middle class kid to what, like numbers?

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Pat McCalla

Now you're talking.

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Pat McCalla

What?

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Joe Gagliano

It's stupid dollars pad. I mean, at that point, what is this, 30, 32, 33 years ago? I mean, I remember at one point in my, trading trading account had over 10 million bucks in it. I mean, this was. Yeah, you're 32 years ago. I mean, it's and and what's or I'd walk on the.

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Joe Gagliano

20.

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Joe Gagliano

21, 22 or 22 is when I started trading. But but you look at,

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Joe Gagliano

The other nuances behind it. Like I'd walk out a trading floor with

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Joe Gagliano

two, three,:

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Joe Gagliano

Because I play Liar's poker all day with the other traders when the markets were slow and wouldn't think anything about it if you lost money or if you if you want money. And still to this day, those.

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Joe Gagliano

So

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Pat McCalla

you might have gone

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Pat McCalla

in there with $5,000 in your pocket. And at the end of the day, you walk out with 0 or 15,000.

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Joe Gagliano

Sure. Just normal day for you.

::

Joe Gagliano

It was just

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Joe Gagliano

you have to become a really good loser. If you're in the market, you have to understand how to handle losses.

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Joe Gagliano

But more importantly, you have to understand how to mitigate your losses, where if you're wrong, you just have to say, you know what? I'm wrong, I'm wrong. All right. So you if you apply that to anything that deals with in the financial space.

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Pat McCalla

Yeah

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Joe Gagliano

I think it'll be an,

::

Joe Gagliano

a benefit for the overall the overall way you view things, because I knew when I made a trade, I knew 30 to 35% of the trades that I make

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Joe Gagliano

would be losers.

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Joe Gagliano

but I also know that 70 to, you know, 60, 65 to 70% of the trades that I make were going to be winners. So the difference is, if you're on a losing trade and you know it's a losing trade, get the heck out of it. Don't try to vindicate yourself saying, okay, gosh, I bought something at 20 and it's now down to 18.

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Joe Gagliano

I don't want to take a loss. Well, you better take a loss because when it goes to ten and you lost 50% of your value, then, then you're really going to be,

::

Joe Gagliano

hoping that you would have sold out at 18. So if you're wrong, you're wrong. Just mitigate your losses and move on.

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Pat McCalla

you think that you were were you kind of wired that way just naturally, or do you think you learned that

::

Pat McCalla

that

::

Joe Gagliano

stage? Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah, definitely learned that at the board and definitely learned strategies,

::

Joe Gagliano

to mitigate losses to, to allow wins to actually become larger wins.

::

Joe Gagliano

you know, those were different traits that I picked up on. And it's the same thing is applied to anything in life that I'm doing, whether it's it's real estate development, whether it's, it's it's sports betting.

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Joe Gagliano

Still, whatever it may be, you could apply those same principles to it as well.

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Joe Gagliano

and, you know, I still bet sports and, you know, I'm, I'm still out there doing some things, and I don't really sweat the losses. What bothers me, because the wins and the losses, only the dollars that go behind the wins and losses, I don't think twice about I get more.

::

Joe Gagliano

I focus on more of validating my own decisions, which is so wrong the way normal people would look at it looking, okay, how much money did you win? It's okay. That's not my focus. I'm focused on what's my winning percentage.

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Pat McCalla

You're more excited. The fact that you picked it right

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Joe Gagliano

up doesn't really matter that

::

Pat McCalla

you got okay.

::

Pat McCalla

You got some money out of it, but you picked it, right.

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Joe Gagliano

Validate. Validating my own decision. I remember,

::

Joe Gagliano

One of the oddest things that I. And I made some stupid big boy bets in my life. Right. And we could talk about those if you want to. But

::

Joe Gagliano

One of my favorite sports to bet is baseball, right? Because nothing beats you in baseball. Just all you gotta do is pick a winner.

::

Joe Gagliano

you're not going to get in the run lines. You know, you're not going to get into all that totals. And baseball and all that other craziness. But it's like, I like to be right, when I'm

::

Joe Gagliano

sports gambling, right? It not just not so much in the market, but I really like when I analyze a, a,

::

Joe Gagliano

a betting card for the day, it takes me, depending on how big the card is or if it's a Saturday, it takes me probably six hours.

::

Joe Gagliano

I mean, it's a lot of work, right? But I remember one thing about two years ago, I was and I the Colorado Rockies were playing really well for some reason, and they were at home and they were putting up a whole bunch of runs every game, and the total was 11.5 or 12,

::

Joe Gagliano

which is a big, big number for a baseball game.

::

Joe Gagliano

Right?

::

Joe Gagliano

And I said, I love this game. These guys are going to score like 20 runs on their own, right? And I bet the game I bet it pretty large too. And the game ended up one to nothing,

::

Joe Gagliano

one to nothing. And I'm saying, God, I couldn't be more wrong than that. And that's still to this day still bothers me.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah, yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

I mean I

::

Joe Gagliano

I can't even tell you how many tens of thousands of games I bet over my life. But

::

Pat McCalla

but that one

::

Joe Gagliano

That one game really stands out because I wasn't even close.

::

Pat McCalla

wasn't about what you lost. It wasn't about the money you lost. It was more about that. You were wrong.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah, like I, I don't care. I don't care if I lose a game by a half a point or by a run, because at least I knew

::

Joe Gagliano

my decision making process was was almost spot on. But when you lose a game by one, nothing when you think it's going to go over 12, I mean, it just kind of messed me up a little bit.

::

Pat McCalla

It was kind of fun. We were on that business trip in Nashville that time, and I remember there was

::

Joe Gagliano

a hockey game.

::

Joe Gagliano

Oh,

::

Pat McCalla

and that was the first you kind of let me inside of your world in your head and what you were planning. And so we were sitting there in the hotel room and you're kind of telling me how you do to make decisions on this and what you're doing, and then you're kind of asking my opinion,

::

Joe Gagliano

which you've never asked since.

::

Pat McCalla

And, and there was a reason you haven't asked since, because

::

Pat McCalla

was kind of learning what you were doing. And then I was so sure, I mean, I, I was looking at what you were looking at, and I'm like,

::

Pat McCalla

I knew

::

Joe Gagliano

You were trying to get a of your wife. And seeing how much money we could bet you were going to go to the I.

::

Joe Gagliano

We were watching. Yeah. I was like,

::

Pat McCalla

maybe I should call Shar and see. But we we lost.

::

Joe Gagliano

And, you know, it's how.

::

Joe Gagliano

We lost had you lost.

::

Joe Gagliano

It. But I have noticed that, you know.

::

Joe Gagliano

Well, I have when I'm, when I'm stuck,

::

Joe Gagliano

I go to your opinion to find out what not to do. That that's the greatest thing to do. And, you know.

::

Joe Gagliano

In fact,

::

Pat McCalla

recently there was a.

::

Pat McCalla

Game. Right.

::

Pat McCalla

And when I told you who I thought it was going to be, and, you know, you don't even tell me your bets really necessarily anymore.

::

Pat McCalla

But you,

::

Joe Gagliano

it.

::

Joe Gagliano

Was a Super Bowl recently.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah, yeah. And I

::

Pat McCalla

said, like, here's who I think is going to win and here's what. And I saw a little concern on your face. And I found out later because you'd already laid down your

::

Joe Gagliano

bet. What? I said you thought you were probably doing. Well.

::

Joe Gagliano

What do they say? This. The sun shines on a dog's ass once a year or two is. So you got a little lucky there. But it's all good, though. It's, you know, just for just for clarity. When you look at a game, when you bet a game, there's really granted, there's a lot of exotics you can bet inside the game player props and all that other nonsense.

::

Joe Gagliano

I don't even look at that stuff. But you could either bet

::

Joe Gagliano

on one of the two teams that are playing each other, or you can bet the over or the under, right?

::

Joe Gagliano

Well, you were oh for two on that hockey game and you analyze the heck out of it. You were look, I was so proud of you though, looking at stats, looking at everything.

::

Joe Gagliano

And then we go to the game and

::

Pat McCalla

I.

::

Pat McCalla

Analyze it so much that I was so confident.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah, it didn't work out well. So that's just not your forte.

::

Joe Gagliano

That's pretty

::

Pat McCalla

confident in the Super Bowl. My pick in the Super Bowl was right. So I'm one for two in my two two choices. But you're also going back. So so we're back at this phone call that you get and the help the audience get it. Now you're working like you gave the background. So you're in the Board of Trade.

::

Pat McCalla

You're there. You've been you've been dealing in grey areas now for a while.

::

Pat McCalla

so give us the background. You get this phone call, your brothers going to school in ASU, you're in Chicago and you've been batting games, some with them. That's where this phone call comes. So carry the story from

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. So I had

::

Host

Hey, we hope you've enjoyed this episode so far. Be sure to like and subscribe to not miss a future podcast! Okay, let's get back to the episode.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. So I had left the Board of Trade a little bit here on vacations to go spend a couple days or weekends with my brother at ASU. And I was not married at that time. And, you know, my brother always put me up on a quasi pedestal and,

::

Joe Gagliano

you know, I had a few bucks, you know, was the board.

::

Joe Gagliano

And these kids were all starving college students. And when I went out there, I made sure that we all had a good time. And, you know, one of the kids that my brother knew of, I don't necessarily say he hung around with them, but he certainly knew them. This kid, Benny Silman, was a bookmaker on campus at ASU.

::

Joe Gagliano

I

::

Joe Gagliano

opened up an account with Benny, and I started betting with Benny for 4 or 5, six months, whatever it was. And I just, you know, not in a braggadocious way at all, but I just.

::

Joe Gagliano

u have to understand, this is:

::

Joe Gagliano

It wasn't like you had a cell phone that had live life stream dating you. I a live stream numbers coming through there, what the betting lines were and how changes were made or injury reports. I mean,

::

Joe Gagliano

you were at the mercy of whatever feeds that you were at and making sure those feeds were coming through correctly. And so

::

Joe Gagliano

and plus, Benny Benny's clientele were a bunch of college students, so they weren't really sharp on numbers.

::

Joe Gagliano

So you get the kids at ASU that maybe lived in Philadelphia or Chicago or New York, and those kids.

::

Pat McCalla

they're.

::

Pat McCalla

Betting with their hearts.

::

Joe Gagliano

their bet with their hearts. They're going to bet on the Bulls. They're going to bet on the bears. They're going to bet on the Eagles.

::

Joe Gagliano

the Giants the Jets. And so they're not really caring what the number what the actual betting true betting lines are that the oddsmakers are posting.

::

Joe Gagliano

t of a newspaper back then in:

::

Joe Gagliano

knowing how his clientele would more than likely bet, let's say the let's say the bears were playing and the bears were three point favorites. He'd bump them up to maybe a six point favorite because he knew that no matter what the number was, his betting clientele, which were 20 year old kids, were going to bet the bears.

::

Joe Gagliano

So he really played that game.

::

Joe Gagliano

What he didn't plan on was having someone like me that understood value in numbers to go in there and just destroy him. I mean,

::

Joe Gagliano

know, I'll get Benny credit because Benny always did the right thing with me.

::

Joe Gagliano

And I beat him hard a couple times. I be, you know, a betting weeks would go from a from a Monday to a Sunday.

::

Joe Gagliano

I mean, there were weeks, you know, 40, 50, 60, 100 grand. And I would just pound on him and so. Well, during that.

::

Joe Gagliano

He's having to pay you.

::

Joe Gagliano

ast forward to, to January of:

::

Joe Gagliano

He calls me out of the blue. I'm at home in, in Lincoln Park in Chicago and, and and I was like, doing something else. I don't know what it was. And he said, hey.

::

Joe Gagliano

Uncle.

::

Joe Gagliano

This is the phone call. Yeah. And he says,

::

Joe Gagliano

Joe, I got a fix and pad. It just didn't register to me. I had no idea what he was talking about.

::

Joe Gagliano

and it's okay, that's cool. Right? He said, no, Joe, I got to fix he said it again and I'm like, what? You know, it's still not registering because it just wasn't thinking along those lines.

::

Joe Gagliano

And finally he spells it out. I remember distinctly

::

Joe Gagliano

hearing him spell out fix. I said, really? Tell me more. And that's what he told me about headaches. Smith you know, stubborn is is my friend

::

Joe Gagliano

headaches? My nemesis?

::

Joe Gagliano

told me about headache and and told me, you know, I didn't. He said, hey, if you ever heard of headache Smith, I said, no.

::

Joe Gagliano

He said, the guy's an absolute basketball stud. He leads the NCAA in minutes, played

::

Joe Gagliano

free throw percentages, defensive MVP. He he is the ASU team. I said okay. And he said he's into me for some money.

::

Joe Gagliano

he's enemy for about 10,000 bucks and doesn't have a way to pay it.

::

Joe Gagliano

And I can get him to fix games.

::

Joe Gagliano

So that's kind of how the whole thing started.

::

Pat McCalla

and I know in your book you talk about it you I've heard you say it several times. It's in the movie script which is going to be a powerful scene, but

::

Pat McCalla

if you were to just hung up the phone, how much different things would. Because that's why I call it the inciting. And one of the inciting incidents in your life were a hinge moment in your life, because you didn't hang up the phone and you carried on the conversation and you went through with this whole thing.

::

Pat McCalla

Your life is

::

Joe Gagliano

Oh, man.

::

Joe Gagliano

I mean, that

::

Pat McCalla

launched you on a on a quest. On a journey.

::

Pat McCalla

So,

::

Joe Gagliano

Penn, I don't think there's a

::

Joe Gagliano

day or a week that has gone by where I just don't think about

::

Joe Gagliano

if I would just had the intestinal fortitude to just say, no, no. But then again, do I can I blame myself? And I go through the whole litany of thoughts where

::

Joe Gagliano

I was raised so much better than that.

::

Joe Gagliano

So I should have said no. But then I go through the thoughts were it when he called me. I was at the Board of Trade for two years. At that point I have seen all this excess and success on the trading floor and I wanted that. Okay, so how do I get it quicker?

::

Joe Gagliano

Instant gratification type of thing.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah, yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

but if I just would have said no. Yeah. Oh my gosh. What? My life would have been different at that point, but I didn't. Yeah. They didn't.

::

Pat McCalla

Well, and because you didn't say no, then you end up working with, Steven Headache Smith in a sense. And we'll get into that in a little bit. But you end up fixing five games.

::

Joe Gagliano

We fix four total. Yeah, there was four total. And you know that old adage that greed kills? Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

you originally was this can be the one game.

::

Joe Gagliano

No, originally was supposed to be two. It was Oregon State and Oregon.

::

Joe Gagliano

so back up a little bit on the call with, with Benny when Benny mentioned the fix and tells me about headache and and I was like I said, I didn't have the courage to say no. So instead of not instead of saying yes, I, I kind of split the baby, so to speak, and said, okay, let me talk to this guy.

::

Joe Gagliano

I want to talk to this headache guy.

::

Joe Gagliano

So he set up the call and I remember setting, I remember talking to headache and

::

Joe Gagliano

because Benny gave a preface to headache that his, his sports book was backed by organized crime in Chicago. So Benny kind of teed this whole thing up with headache, saying, hey, you don't owe me this $10,000 headache.

::

Joe Gagliano

You owe the the mob in Chicago. And here I'm going to put you on the phone with the guy, and he's going to you're going to work out this deal with him. You have the perfect name.

::

Joe Gagliano

Well, I don't know.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah, yeah. So it's

::

Joe Gagliano

headache. Didn't though. Here I am, a 23 year old kid talking to a 20 year old kid. He doesn't know who I am. He has no idea that. I'm just as nervous about this call is. He may be talking to me and and, you know.

::

Pat McCalla

thinking you're with. I mean, because Benny set it up. He's thinking you're with the mob.

::

Joe Gagliano

He's thinking I'm someone that he needs to pay.

::

Joe Gagliano

I disagree with some of the assertions of the quote unquote mob, but but people have their own thoughts and that it is what it is, and it's not something my, myself or my family have ever been involved with.

::

Joe Gagliano

but he's thinking on the phone with me that I'm someone that he needs to respect and pay.

::

Joe Gagliano

No idea that I'm just a 23 year old kid, you know, trading bonds at the Board of Trade and and you don't owe me a penny type of thing. But he distinctly said on that call, and, you know, we it was a quick short call.

::

Joe Gagliano

He said, I'll give you two games, I'll give you two games. And I worked out a deal with him for 50,000.

::

Joe Gagliano

I'd pay him 50,000 a game, and I'd remove or relieve the debt that he owed to Bernie. And he said, I'll give you two games. And, he said, but I won't lose. I said, man, I don't need you to lose.

::

Joe Gagliano

I just make sure you don't win by more than I tell you.

::

Pat McCalla

So. And now, from his perspective. So he owes 10,000 to Benny. He thinks it's going to be. He thinks there's maybe organized crime behind it. So not only is he going to fix two games with you, but he's not going to have to lose. He's going to pay off his debt and he's going to make for him at that time, being a poor kid from Dallas.

::

Joe Gagliano

Make a hundred.

::

Joe Gagliano

Grand. Yeah, he's

::

Pat McCalla

going to make 100 grand between these,

::

Pat McCalla

which was probably felt like

::

Joe Gagliano

yeah,

::

Pat McCalla

$5 million

::

Joe Gagliano

It's it's a massive win for him. Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

so that was from his perspective.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. From

::

Pat McCalla

your perspective. Then you're going to do this because like you said, instant gratification.

::

Joe Gagliano

Because I know the intricacies of the sports betting world. Because I've got a few bucks in cash that I could throw at this thing. And I've got a lot of,

::

Joe Gagliano

bookmaker relationships and I'm just thinking, okay,

::

Joe Gagliano

It's going to cost me 50,000 bucks a game, how much can I make.

::

Pat McCalla

a little money at it, you said I could throw some money at it. How much money did you throw at the first

::

Joe Gagliano

Well, the first game, I ended up, I brought to Vegas me 500,000. And then I had.

::

Joe Gagliano

I had a bunch of.

::

Joe Gagliano

Sports, bookmaker connections in Chicago and New Orleans and on the East Coast and probably about 14, maybe 15 different accounts that I probably was able to lay off a little north of 200,000, maybe 200.

::

Joe Gagliano

me, I'd say no more than 250. Right? 2 to 250.

::

Pat McCalla

end, Joe is in this, right in the Netflix documentary, which is great. Again, audience, if you haven't watched it, bad sport, you got to go to that. And it's I think the third

::

Pat McCalla

highest or most watched sports

::

Joe Gagliano

It's a third, third highest ranked sports documentary in Netflix history, behind,

::

Joe Gagliano

Michael Jordan, The Last Dance.

::

Joe Gagliano

That athlete, a that horrific pedophile from Michigan State with the U.S. gymnastics, a women's team. And then ours is the third.

::

Pat McCalla

But I don't think they brought that up. Like I think the they actually talk about game one and they talk about you haven't put in 500,000 on it. But that's just what you brought to Vegas. You actually put another 200,000 or something like you're saying on

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You

::

Pat McCalla

put down about 700,000

::

Joe Gagliano

And about 700,000 out in that game total. But but getting back to when you talked, how would you call it about a hinge moment? Is that you. Yeah. So, so the hinge moment when you talk about the call with Benny, right.

::

Joe Gagliano

I'll go back to there's there's two examples in for this hinge moment that really come to mind was that call with Benny where he says fix and tries to educate me what a fixes.

::

Joe Gagliano

And I'm completely oblivious and clueless on that. But then the second thing was, the day of the game, when I talked to headache that day, we identified two games and it was Oregon State and Oregon. You know, between ASU and between U of a, University of Arizona,

::

Joe Gagliano

at that point, they they were on the side the Pac ten.

::

Joe Gagliano

Now, I think it's the Pac 12 and or even if it changed again, I'm not really sure. I can't keep track of all these conference changes anymore.

::

Joe Gagliano

But at that point, you know, teams from Oregon, Oregon State in Oregon would come to Arizona and they would play on a Thursday and on Saturday, and they'd flip flop with University of Arizona.

::

Joe Gagliano

U had a pretty good team that:

::

Joe Gagliano

that Arizona State would be a double digit favorite at home.

::

Joe Gagliano

So when I set this up with headache probably a week in advance, looking at the schedule, I said, okay, this is what we're going to do. Oregon State and Oregon Thursday, Saturday. And he's like, great, I'll give you two games and then I'm out. So that whole week I start planning

::

Joe Gagliano

I start planning. I go to the bank, I pull out cash, I get everything ready.

::

Joe Gagliano

g to get to Vegas, like nine,:

::

Joe Gagliano

I'm going to beat the game. The game starts at 7:00.

::

Joe Gagliano

I wake up that morning and the limo driver is going to pick me up in Chicago, and,

::

Joe Gagliano

There was a snowstorm and an ice storm that you could not believe in. January in Chicago. Right. And so this the limo comes, picked me up. He's like.

::

Joe Gagliano

At

::

Pat McCalla

to.

::

Pat McCalla

Vegas. You got to lay down the

::

Joe Gagliano

hours.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. Without that, it's everything's everything's done at that point.

::

Joe Gagliano

So the limo was like half hour, 45 minutes late. And then we're in the car and we're driving at a snail's pace because there's ice all over the roads and it's just a miserable Chicago winter day, right? To finally get to the airport. And for those of us that are old enough to know the O.J. Simpson

::

Joe Gagliano

Hertz commercials when he's running through the airport, that was kind of me.

::

Joe Gagliano

I had a duffel bag with a half a million bucks over my shoulder, and I'm trying to get to the gate to make this flight. And I get to the gate and it says, flight's delayed. And I go to the counter. I say, you know, how long is this delay? She goes, I don't know. We've got ice

::

Joe Gagliano

They're trying to de-ice planes. They're trying to get planes in all the stuff. You two, maybe three hours.

::

Joe Gagliano

So, okay, now I go to a payphone because we don't have cell phones back there, and I go to a payphone,

::

Joe Gagliano

nts had moved to Las Vegas in:

::

Joe Gagliano

And, you know, my father, God bless them, was clueless with sports gambling. I mean.

::

Joe Gagliano

He.

::

Joe Gagliano

Just like to watch the Cubs, like to watch the bears and would watch a Super Bowl or the World Series type of thing, but no idea what sports are betting at all. Anytime I brought it up, it's like I was,

::

Joe Gagliano

talking to a wall. Pretty much. He just didn't want to know about it and didn't have any gamble with him.

::

Joe Gagliano

And so I remember you talk about a hinge moment again. Well, the first one was when Benny tells me that I didn't have the intestinal fortitude to actually say no, tell him about the fix. The second moment was when I'm at the airport and I get to the gate and the flight's delayed two, three, four hours, whatever it was.

::

Joe Gagliano

And I go to the payphone and I call my parents and wake my dad up. I, you know, I never forget my mom answering the phone. Could my mom got up early. My dad always used to sleep in a little bed, and my mom answering the phone and yelling for my dad. Joe, Joey's on the phone, right?

::

Joe Gagliano

And so he gets up.

::

Joe Gagliano

He said, hey, Joey, are you okay? He said, yeah, dad. And I'm trying to tell him all this stuff. In a quick little phone call, I said, hey, I'm coming to Vegas. Oh, I said, oh, great, we'll go to dinner. I said, dad, I don't have time for that. I need you to go to the bank. I'm at the airport.

::

Joe Gagliano

I've got cash with me. I got a better game that starts at 7:00. My flight's delayed because there's ice storms and snow storms here in Chicago. I need you to go to the bank and pull out everything you have, he said. Why?

::

Joe Gagliano

It's it's.

::

Joe Gagliano

It. It's like I wish you when you talk about a hinge moment. Yeah. If I like I said, if I would have said nota bene.

::

Joe Gagliano

Okay. That would have been a step in the right direction because I knew right from wrong, but I couldn't do that. And then if my dad or my mom would have never answered the phone that day.

::

Pat McCalla

It's so interesting. The both of your hinge moments are these phone calls like one if you would have just hung up,

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah, the other one

::

Pat McCalla

if they just wouldn't have answered

::

Pat McCalla

the trajectory of your life might have looked differently

::

Joe Gagliano

Or you know, and I, I beat myself up when I say this path because, okay, I could say, what if my mom or dad did answer that phone that day? What if they were on vacation? What if they just didn't hear the phone because they were up in age or whatever it was? Or what if they did answer the phone, which they did, obviously, and my dad would have said, no way am I doing this.

::

Joe Gagliano

Get your ass home. Forget about this nonsense. Forget about this. Yeah, yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

I'd be like, okay, now, in a weird way, in a weird circle of life thing, you know, here I am, 57. Whole bunch of grey hair and feeling like I'm 90, trying to parent our four kids, three of which are married already. I carry that lesson and those thoughts with me, with how I conduct myself with my kids.

::

Joe Gagliano

Like.

::

Joe Gagliano

I know my youngest is, is our son Matteo, and he's he's turning 17 here in a little bit. Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

And I want to be his friend, but I can't be his friend and his parent at the same time where if he ever and I and I think about it, if he ever called me and said, hey, dad, I got this, this, this going on.

::

Joe Gagliano

No. Okay. My mind goes to some pretty weird places and I can think outside the box. Probably better than most people. But knowing how I viewed what my dad did to me by saying, are you flippin crazy? I'm not doing that nonsense. Hang up the phone on me and wish I wish you would have done, because my life would have completely been polar opposite than what it's been for the last 30 years, and I carry that through to my kids now.

::

Joe Gagliano

And how I try to be a barometer to my kids and my family, and making sure that they don't have the opportunity on my watch to accept mediocrity or to compromise their integrity.

::

Pat McCalla

Man Joe that's such a what I mean we could unpack that one for quite a while. That's a whole.

::

Joe Gagliano

it is. Those are two things that I have, I don't want to say regrets over because there's not a thing about my,

::

Joe Gagliano

you know, 50 years that I had with my dad that I would change. But I just look at it from a, a parental standpoint. Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

I wish that would have been different. But it wasn't.

::

Pat McCalla

what you were asking him to do is you needed him to go lay down these bets, right? Because you weren't going to get there in time. You didn't have the money, so you were asking him. He and a couple of buddies end up going out. And these bets that you were making his first game, they they all had to be under 10,000 right at each.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. So really I was really aware I don't know how he became aware of this at the age of 23, but I was I was really aware of being under the radar, not being noticed, not drawing attention, not moving the betting line. Because if you understand what in theory, a sportsbook is.

::

Joe Gagliano

Say the bears are playing the Packers and you're a sportsbook.

::

Pat McCalla

Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

you can care less if you should care less if the bears win or if the Packers win. You don't care.

::

Pat McCalla

gonna make money either way.

::

Joe Gagliano

All you care about being a sports book is collecting 10% for having an opinion. That's it, that's it. That's called the vig. So

::

Joe Gagliano

sportsbooks charge 10% and they charge you 10% to have an opinion. So at the end of the day, if they if the sportsbook has 10 million bucks on the bears and 10 million bucks on the Packers, they don't care who wins.

::

Joe Gagliano

They just made a million bucks. They're completely agnostic as to what the final score is.

::

Joe Gagliano

That's how sportsbooks work. And so it was the same thing when you look at this,

::

Joe Gagliano

the thought process here of how we were going to try to stay under the radar is

::

Joe Gagliano

Anything under $10,000 in cash doesn't have to report a factor, which is a currency transaction report.

::

Joe Gagliano

So we would go back, my dad and I, excuse me

::

Joe Gagliano

some hotels out there back in:

::

Joe Gagliano

Half $1 million

::

Pat McCalla

in $10,000

::

Joe Gagliano

on a Thursday and a Thursday night Pac ten basketball game, that's pretty much meaningless.

::

Joe Gagliano

But here was the beauty of how this happened. This was a Thursday night game against Oregon State and a Saturday game against Oregon. So the Thursday night game in Vegas, I had to move. I bet like 500,000 in cash and did everything with the bookmakers and that's that's fine.

::

Joe Gagliano

That really wasn't that hard to do.

::

Joe Gagliano

Because Sunday was Super Bowl Sunday.

::

Joe Gagliano

Vegas at that point. You had:

::

Joe Gagliano

It was pretty easy to do. And so

::

Joe Gagliano

the day of that game, you know, ended up getting the 500,000. Arizona's line was right around 11.5 or AC line was -11.5 for 12. I had talked to headache earlier that day, and so we had an arrangement headache, and I had an arrangement and I intentionally say headache because headache was the like I said earlier, the nemesis, the villain

::

Joe Gagliano

I look at, Stephon is my friend, right.

::

Joe Gagliano

And you and I both.

::

Pat McCalla

he and.

::

Pat McCalla

He says the

::

Joe Gagliano

same thing. Yeah. He's

::

Pat McCalla

like seven was one personality and headache was another personality.

::

Joe Gagliano

He was living and headache at this.

::

Joe Gagliano

Point he was in headache. He was he was the ball or on campus and he was headache. That was his persona.

::

Joe Gagliano

so I had set up an arrangement to call headache that day, right after the shootaround. So they did their shootaround in the morning.

::

Pat McCalla

But but I would just want to interrupt really quick because what you just said I don't want the audience to miss this when you're saying that headaches your friend or what. He's your friend. Now at that time you didn't really know him. You've had a phone call with him

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. Where

::

Pat McCalla

he thought maybe you were part of organized crime or something.

::

Pat McCalla

You weren't. But that's why he's kind of nervous. And then you're doing a couple of phone calls telling him what you wanted the number to be. Right. But that's really all you guys are doing with each other. You don't know each

::

Joe Gagliano

know, at that point, I was playing the character as this organized, crime heavy guy in Chicago that really was going to threaten him. And, and hey, you better do what you need to do here to handle your business the right way. And

::

Joe Gagliano

make sure it comes out. The outcome is, is, is, is going to come out as we need it to.

::

Joe Gagliano

that was the role that I was playing. And we had set up a call that day to talk, and I was going to let him know the number was. Now. I knew we were betting that line was right around 11.5 or 12. So ASU -11.5 or 12. What we were doing because we were ASU was favored.

::

Joe Gagliano

You don't want to bet the favorite. You want to bet the underdog. So I want to bet Oregon State plus the 11.5 or 12. That means Oregon State can win the game. And hey, that's great. Or if Oregon State loses the game, just don't lose by more than 12 or 11.5 or 11

::

Joe Gagliano

because you can't win the game by half point.

::

Joe Gagliano

You know that what I do. So as long as Oregon State loses, but not more than 11, I'm still going to cash the tickets. So

::

Joe Gagliano

when I called headache that day, and I actually called them from the airport,

::

Joe Gagliano

Right after their, their shootaround, right before I got on the plane, I said, and I knew that that.

::

Pat McCalla

after.

::

Pat McCalla

Your dad's call

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

you. So you made the call to your dad,

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. 20 year college. Well, it was a couple hours.

::

Joe Gagliano

I wanted a kid. I ideally wanted to get to Vegas first and then see where the betting lines were, make sure I knew where we were going to lay the money off. But literally, I had no time for that because. So I tried to see when this flight was going to take off, and then finally they gave clearance on the flight, probably, I think it was taken off around noon or 11 or noon right around there.

::

Joe Gagliano

And that's when I called headache, because I knew his shootaround was going to get done that day, and I was going to talk to him. So what happened was I got him on the phone and I said, hey, the number six, you need to win by no more than six.

::

Pat McCalla

you gave yourself a little buffer.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. So so I knew that. I knew I was going to be able I felt pretty comfortable. I didn't make a bet yet. I was relying on my dad and his friends to do what they had to do. I gave them as best as I could, clear and concise instructions,

::

Joe Gagliano

and I felt pretty comfortable that, hey, even if we mess up a little bit, even if they draw some attention, maybe, maybe we beat the line down to nine.

::

Joe Gagliano

Okay, but if I told headache the number six, I still going to build an A cushion for myself. So I told them the number six. Well, it turns out we never even really move the line. Line never went. I don't think we better take it sub 11. So we were betting the game, you know, eight. Oregon State plus 11 plus 11.5 plus 12.

::

Joe Gagliano

So those were the bulk of the tickets on that 500,000. Everything with the bookmakers. I got 11.5 for 12 with the bookmakers. So that wasn't a problem. So for me to give the number to six, the stubborn

::

Joe Gagliano

was really just a build in a cushion because I figured there's no way

::

Joe Gagliano

there's nine other players on the court, all Division one players, they all got game.

::

Pat McCalla

this is.

::

Pat McCalla

The part of the story that just blows my mind.

::

Joe Gagliano

they all got game. They're all talented athletes.

::

Joe Gagliano

There's no way one guy is going to be able to dictate this score to make it land down. Six. Now I say one guy because

::

Joe Gagliano

there actually was another guy. They had, the other guard, Isaac Burton, ice Burton.

::

Pat McCalla

Did you know that he had roped him in

::

Joe Gagliano

or.

::

Joe Gagliano

I did, I did,

::

Joe Gagliano

headache. It told me about that on the on the first call. I because I questioned him on it and I said, hey, man, I know you got skills. I know you're talented, but I'm worried you're going to be able you're not going to be able to carry this load. And you're you're not going to be able to dictate how this game is going to go, he said.

::

Joe Gagliano

I played the entire game. He said, freedom coach doesn't take me out. I play when I want to play and I dictate the floor. But hey, I could bring the other guard in as well. So when he said he could bring the other guard in at that point pad, it's like, okay, now it's a no brainer.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. Because you've got,

::

Joe Gagliano

you know, arguably the point guard. You've got the shooting guard, you've got probably 40 to 45% of the offense with those two players. Okay, I'll take those odds I'll take those odds.

::

Pat McCalla

but so so when you tell him six

::

Pat McCalla

if they win by seven, eight, nine, ten you're still going to win your money.

::

Joe Gagliano

I'm not going to get paid.

::

Pat McCalla

Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

You're still going to get paid. But you you built in a buffer. And

::

Pat McCalla

did you think he could get it right on

::

Joe Gagliano

Never never in my wildest.

::

Joe Gagliano

That's

::

Pat McCalla

what blows my mind because the game ends and it's.

::

Joe Gagliano

I think.

::

Joe Gagliano

The final score was what, a 782 to a 76, something like that.

::

Joe Gagliano

And to be 80.

::

Joe Gagliano

Two points in a basketball game divided by two. You're talking, you know, 40 some odd baskets, right?

::

Joe Gagliano

To have 40 some odd baskets and to be able to make sure that you only win by six, it's.

::

Joe Gagliano

It's it's

::

Pat McCalla

incredible.

::

Pat McCalla

He pulled that off.

::

Joe Gagliano

You talk about three point field goals. You talk about free throws I mean it's

::

Joe Gagliano

I didn't even remotely think he could make that happen. And and so my dad and I we ended up I ended up getting to Vegas probably around 2:00, maybe 3:00. And my dad picked me up at the airport. They had bet some some of the games, I bet maybe 70, 80,000 worth of the game.

::

Joe Gagliano

So I had to get the rest of it off myself, and I ended up getting the rest of it off. I ended up getting a catching a break. There was a there was a casino called Little Caesars that probably very, very few people are going to know. I remember it was right where the Paris Hotel is right now.

::

Joe Gagliano

It was owned by a, East coast, East coast bookmaker by the name of Jean Mayday. And, Jean has his mantra was, if you can bring it, I'll take it.

::

Joe Gagliano

That was his old school guy, right?

::

Pat McCalla

So you got to drop

::

Joe Gagliano

So. So I went in there, and I. I think I got all about 200,000 off with Little Caesars and Jean. I walked in there and I said, hey, I want to work and say tonight. He said, how much? I said, what can you take? He said, what do you got? So I think I got a little north of 200,000 off with Jean that day at Little Caesars, at which made the rest might think my dad and his friends already had like 80 off and so it was really wasn't that hard to get the rest of it off.

::

Joe Gagliano

By that time. We got all of it off probably right around by five, 530. And then it was it was odd because at that point we had all the tickets, you know, I organize all the tickets and envelopes. According to the casinos

::

Joe Gagliano

that were used. And,

::

Joe Gagliano

we sat in the sportsbook at the belly sportsbook, my dad, myself and his and his friends and two friends that were with us.

::

Joe Gagliano

And, the game wasn't on TV.

::

Joe Gagliano

No, no, I want to make sure I say this. I never said anything to my dad about what was being done.

::

Pat McCalla

he has no idea.

::

Joe Gagliano

No clue? No clue. He just knows. Hey, his son's at the Board of Trade. His son's making a few bucks. His son likes to gamble. He's going to be out here for Super Bowl weekend

::

Joe Gagliano

now. Did I think my dad was

::

Joe Gagliano

didn't really pick up on a vibe, or where maybe he overheard something,

::

Joe Gagliano

my my dad was not an idiot, let's put it that way.

::

Joe Gagliano

So smart man.

::

Joe Gagliano

But he just didn't ask me. It was kind of like,

::

Joe Gagliano

don't ask, don't tell type of thing. Yeah, but never sent it. So we're watching the we're not even watching the game. We're watching the ticker come across. It's my we're eating $1.

::

Joe Gagliano

Hottie.

::

Joe Gagliano

Update some scores.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

This is:

::

Joe Gagliano

And so we're in the sportsbook at a at a high top table. The four of us and I ordered a couple $1 hot dogs from the hot dog cart at Bally's. And it got 700,000 on this game. And I'm watching the ticker go by like every 3 or 4 minutes.

::

Joe Gagliano

They show the Arizona State Oregon State game.

::

Joe Gagliano

And Patrick was ugly. I mean, ASU was up by 20 in the first half. I mean.

::

Joe Gagliano

15.

::

Joe Gagliano

15, 18, 20 every every update that came by, I'm like, what the heck is this guy doing? And then we had a,

::

Joe Gagliano

ticker update come by where, hey, Steven Headache Smith has, had 20 points in the first half. And I've said, well, what? That's crazy.

::

Joe Gagliano

Are you

::

Pat McCalla

at this point? Are you thinking that he played you? Maybe.

::

Joe Gagliano

I'm thinking,

::

Joe Gagliano

I didn't pay him anything yet. Oh, so I had never paid him anything.

::

Joe Gagliano

I told him I'm going to pay him the day after he performs. Right. So I'm thinking maybe. Maybe there's pro scouts in the in the stadium, which there were. Maybe he. But he ended up scoring. You know, I find out after the fact when I looked at the box score the next day scored 39 points.

::

Joe Gagliano

It was a career high for.

::

Joe Gagliano

Him off of the team's points. Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

Career high. I mean just an I don't know how many three pointers, but he just torched it that night. Right. So he ended up having a really good night. And you know the second half I'd say right around the 15 minute mark of the second half, we're watching the ticker keep going by. And

::

Joe Gagliano

the lead starts really shrinking.

::

Joe Gagliano

You see you see 15, you see 12, you see ten, you see eight. And I'm like, wow, this this is feeling great. Right? Because the the first half my dad say, yo, yo, what are you doing spending this kind of money on a game. The team's up by 20, you know. And I'm trying to tell him that's a long game to be patient.

::

Joe Gagliano

We'll see what happens. Sure enough, the second half things started happening. Now I wish I would have been able to watch the game. It would have been great. But I did get some some feedback that night from Benny when I talked to him about what a masterful job. You know, Steven, did, you know, just with some bad passes down the stretch, some turnovers.

::

Joe Gagliano

you know, people don't really realize in point shaving or fixing a game. It's not about an offensive performance. So it's off static static headache, headache put up 39 points type of thing. Right. And and career offensive night. But what they don't understand is what he did on the defensive side of the ball.

::

Pat McCalla

is really where he,

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. Giving someone an extra couple feet on a jump shot, maybe,

::

Joe Gagliano

not taking an angle the way he should have taken an angle on defense. Yeah. Maybe breaking a few free throws down the stretch, whatever it needed to get done. But there were some turnovers, too, which were really masterful in that. After

::

Joe Gagliano

obviously not a not a, not to break the storyline here at all, but obviously everyone knows I got indicted for this whole thing.

::

Joe Gagliano

But

::

Joe Gagliano

afterwards you get to see a lot of the footage, the game footage, and you could see some

::

Pat McCalla

See what he was doing.

::

Joe Gagliano

turnovers that were okay, the okay. Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

Isaac would run one way and headache would pass the ball behind him type of thing and be a turnover. But yeah it appeared it went second half when I was watching that ticker.

::

Joe Gagliano

Just.

::

Joe Gagliano

Euphoric and amazing I know I wish I would have watched the game. I have since then, but it landed on six. It landed on six at the end of the game.

::

Joe Gagliano

And you know.

::

Joe Gagliano

You make in that first game.

::

Joe Gagliano

That first game,

::

Joe Gagliano

my dad and I ended up collecting a little over 1.1 million in Vegas in cash. And I say 1.1 because, you know, people can do the math and they're going to say, no, you can't bet $500 to get 1.1. Yeah, okay. Well, you can, because what I did,

::

Joe Gagliano

for me it's numbers. For me it's just numbers.

::

Joe Gagliano

So rather than if you understand this and I'll try to give a quick little tutorial on on the gambling side of it.

::

Joe Gagliano

d on the game, you got to bet:

::

Joe Gagliano

However, if you bet parlays now parlay you bet two team parlays.

::

Joe Gagliano

get you're going to get back:

::

Joe Gagliano

And then you take the other two teams that are playing each other and you take a parlay, take $1,000 parlay with teammate, a $1,000 parlay with team B, you can't lose. And instead of winning, instead of laying instead of laying 10%, now I'm getting 1.3 on my money because I'm going to lose one side. Or the ideal side of the ideal C is on the teams and the other games that you're coupling that the Oregon State with.

::

Joe Gagliano

You don't bet lines that have half a points on them. You bet lines that are even numbers. So then maybe you push, maybe that let's say let's say you bet the Bulls and the Pacers and the Bulls or minus six. You bet Oregon State and the Bulls Oregon State and the Pacers minus six. And if that game if that Bulls and the Pacers game reigns on six

::

Joe Gagliano

you're going to push on both sides.

::

Joe Gagliano

now you're getting the the the straight returns on the money's on top it. And you're not playing the bigs and you're winning both sides. So that's how I got to about a million won in Vegas. In cash on game one. Plus you know, I had had about 300,000 with different sportsbooks back in Chicago.

::

Joe Gagliano

So

::

Pat McCalla

Now, you after that game, you put 50,000 in an envelope to

::

Pat McCalla

give to headache.

::

Pat McCalla

Right.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. So I ended up calling Manny that night after the game and I said, hey,

::

Joe Gagliano

I need you to book a flight first thing in the morning from Arizona to Vegas. He said, why? What's up? I said, I need to give you money. He said, okay. So he came and my mentality was, I'm going to do Saturday's game bigger, better and better than I did Thursday's game.

::

Joe Gagliano

Because

::

Pat McCalla

now you know it's going to work.

::

Joe Gagliano

Good. Now I know. But the only reason to get this kid meaning stubborn or headache, whichever one he was at that point.

::

Joe Gagliano

The only way to get him to make sure he performs is I want to get cash in his hand.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

Because I'm looking. Here's a here's a star.

::

Joe Gagliano

From Dallas.

::

Joe Gagliano

A starving college kid from from Dallas. Ramon,

::

Joe Gagliano

you know, within the whole gambling, 10,000 had no way out. If I can get him 100,000 bucks in cash, let him sleep on that. Let him sleep with it as as a pillow over nighttime. Let him know that we're real on our side. You do what you need to do.

::

Joe Gagliano

We're real. The money's real on this side.

::

Joe Gagliano

50 for the game I.

::

Joe Gagliano

Game 50 for game one. And I gave him 50 for game two.

::

Joe Gagliano

You prepaid him.

::

Joe Gagliano

Prepaid him for game two.

::

Pat McCalla

But you knew that if he's holding a hundred thousand cash, he's. You might get him for more.

::

Joe Gagliano

know, I knew I'd have them. I knew I'd have them to perform for game two because now I'm thinking, okay, now I'm sitting on a million bucks. Plus in Vegas I've got bookmaker credit. I'm thinking, how do I crush it even harder for game two? And okay, so I need to make sure my superstar performs. How do I make sure my superstar performs?

::

Joe Gagliano

Let him fall in love with greed. Let him fall in love with cash. Let him sleep with it. Let him go shopping on Friday, whatever he wants to do. So I had Benny.

::

Pat McCalla

Isn't it interesting, though, Joe, that we found out 20 years later that, that did work for him, but it actually he got way less than we thought because it was 20 years before you actually sit down with Steven face to face. And I was there was almost surreal. We we are at that restaurant. We meet somewhere between Austin and Dallas, and you guys are sitting there telling each other the story.

::

Pat McCalla

So you guys are both on prison time. You done all this stuff and and you're meeting really for the first time. And then as you guys are talking, you tell Steven about, you know, when I gave that 100,000 and he's like, well, I,

::

Joe Gagliano

I have a hundred thousand.

::

Pat McCalla

So Benny was Benny was stealing off the top right?

::

Joe Gagliano

Benny, from what I heard from from Steven was Benny game 20,000 a game? Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

so Benny took quite a bit for himself.

::

Joe Gagliano

Took it all off the top.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. What did

::

Pat McCalla

you make on your second game then.

::

Joe Gagliano

Well sack.

::

Joe Gagliano

Game? I took 100% of what I won on game one and rolled it in the game too. So I did some creative things with exotics on parlays and everything else. And, you know, went home after game two. Yeah. If we're talking about game two, because I once again, I told headache that day after shootaround on Saturday, I told them the game had to land on six.

::

Joe Gagliano

And you know, same thing with line Oregon. Arizona State was playing Oregon probably about 11.5 12 point favorite. Pretty much identical to the Oregon State game. And told them it had to land on six because I said, okay, I need a cushion somehow I need a cushion and took everything I had rolled it into game two, did a lot of exotics, did everything else, and,

::

Joe Gagliano

ended up going home with about 3 million bucks

::

Pat McCalla

Wow.

::

Joe Gagliano

landed right on six.

::

Joe Gagliano

Bad.

::

Pat McCalla

So he did it twice.

::

Joe Gagliano

It landed right on six.

::

Joe Gagliano

Now it's just incredible. Now you look at that. You look at.

::

Joe Gagliano

That. Should have been the dream weekend right? Super Bowl weekend. You got a Thursday game a Saturday game. You're under the radar. Nobody knows what's happening yet. You just made 3 million bucks in cash on on two games. I'm 23 years old.

::

Joe Gagliano

then I beat the Super Bowl on Saturday. I think I put I don't know what the number is.

::

Joe Gagliano

It's either 3 or 500,000 on the, on the, on the Dallas Cowboys and the Dallas Cowboys ended up winning. I'm like, oh gosh. So I had all this.

::

Joe Gagliano

Cash Friday Saturday. And that's these

::

Pat McCalla

three games. And

::

Joe Gagliano

right.

::

Joe Gagliano

Well Sunday was a Super Bowl. That's why I bought the Super Bowl on Sunday and I win that as well. And I watched that game with my dad in the Super Bowl game. And and it was just

::

Joe Gagliano

when I think it the only benefit for the ASU things was

::

Joe Gagliano

the laughs and the memories that I had with my dad, because once again, my dad wasn't my coconspirator he my dad didn't realize what was going on.

::

Joe Gagliano

or:

::

Joe Gagliano

I just, I got into a some type of hot streak. Right. And I had these purple $500 chips that were just stacked, and we had

::

Joe Gagliano

couple dozen people watching behind us, and it was just such a good memory for my dad. And I

::

Joe Gagliano

and the laughs. And we were having a few drinks and it was. So that's the only positive I can take from this at these events

::

Joe Gagliano

was just some good memories with my dad.

::

Pat McCalla

Well and if you would have stopped there if you and, and Stephen and the rest of the people involved in this would have stopped there, almost a guarantee you would have gotten away with it.

::

Joe Gagliano

if.

::

Joe Gagliano

I would have stopped and and and Steven would have stopped. I believe

::

Joe Gagliano

that nothing would. It came out of it because we I know how I manage the money. Yeah, I know those those lines didn't move a sub ten and a half or 11 at any given point.

::

Joe Gagliano

I felt comfortable in how I was there.

::

Joe Gagliano

What what stymied the whole thing was when you look at guys like Benny and some of the other kids on campus, that Benny told what was going on to.

::

Joe Gagliano

So when that's when

::

Joe Gagliano

game three rolls around at that point.

::

Joe Gagliano

and I thought we were done after game two. They thought we were completely done after game two, I. I told Benny I was out, I told I didn't even tell Steven I need to talk to him.

::

Joe Gagliano

And it was a couple weeks later

::

Joe Gagliano

I'm at my apartment in Lincoln Park and I get a phone call.

::

Joe Gagliano

And it's it's Steven. It's the first time he's ever called me, and and I'm shocked on how he even got my number right, but somehow he got my number. I don't know, from my brother, from Benny. I don't know how he got my number. And he. And he tells me,

::

Joe Gagliano

Joe, I'm a senior. Hey, we're playing UCLA tomorrow,

::

Joe Gagliano

I've never beaten UCLA. I'm a, in the four years we've been here, we've never beaten UCLA.

::

Joe Gagliano

at that point, UCLA was like the third ranked team in the country. They had big George Zedek in the middle. They had Charles and Eddie O'Bannon. As forwards. They were just stacked. They were ranked 3 or 4 in the nation and just stacked.

::

Joe Gagliano

And so much so that

::

Joe Gagliano

UCLA was a four point favorite at ASU.

::

Joe Gagliano

So Stephen calls you up and says, hey, we're playing UCLA tomorrow. Now, I had heard rumors from my brother this was probably three weeks after the Oregon game. After game two, I had heard rumors from my brother and from a few people that my brother had introduced me to that,

::

Joe Gagliano

Headache was broke. It was spending money like a drunken sailor.

::

Joe Gagliano

I went out and bought a car and went out and bought a big medallion of diamonds with a basketball and

::

Joe Gagliano

earrings and and clothes and

::

Pat McCalla

not hiding the fact that he came into money.

::

Joe Gagliano

Definitely not hiding it. But, you know, at that point, put himself in your in and put yourself in his shoes. He's

::

Joe Gagliano

very confident he's going to be a first round NBA true. Draft pick in in June. So so now we're in February and he's thinking five months later he's going to be drafted. And all of his carriers are going to be out the door.

::

Joe Gagliano

And and that's it. So he calls me up and said, hey, you know we've never beat UCLA. They're we're playing them tomorrow on our home court. I'd like to bet on myself. I said, why don't you do that with Benny? You said Benny doesn't want the action. He said, I need your home. He said, how much do you want to win?

::

Joe Gagliano

He said, I want to win 20,000 bucks.

::

Joe Gagliano

So I thought about it for a second. And this is another one of my litanies of mistakes, I should say. Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

I looked at the line. I saw the line was four. I said, okay, you got ASU, ASU plus four tomorrow night against against UCLA for 22,000. I said good luck.

::

Joe Gagliano

And I got the phone.

::

Joe Gagliano

Something.

::

Joe Gagliano

Triggered in me were saying okay I need to be there because I need to watch this. For two reasons.

::

Joe Gagliano

I want to watch it just for personal curiosity, because I want to see how this guy plays now he's motivated. Now, I know I've heard rumblings that he's broke, and now he's got 20,000, that if he is broke, he doesn't have 20,000.

::

Joe Gagliano

And he knows he doesn't know me, but he know he thinks he knows of me. So I'm going to see how this kid's going to play. And the second thing was I looked at the calendar because it's the same thing with Oregon State and Oregon. When they come to town, you got UCLA and USC comes to town, and USC and UCLA, they flip flop with you.

::

Joe Gagliano

They and they go back and forth. So the UCLA game was on a Thursday. And then the USC game was on a Saturday. So in the back of my mind when I'm

::

Joe Gagliano

forecasting and and looking ahead after the UCLA game,

::

Joe Gagliano

I said, well if headache loses this game, well if he wins I'm going to give him 20,000 bucks.

::

Joe Gagliano

I'm going to make a trip to Arizona. I'm going to visit my brother, and I think I'm going to be happy for this kid that he won 20 grand.

::

Joe Gagliano

That was one way I was looking at it. The other way I was looking at it well, if headache loses,

::

Joe Gagliano

he doesn't have $22,000 to pay me that. I know.

::

Joe Gagliano

So why don't I just fly to Arizona, watch the game,

::

Joe Gagliano

I'll bring money with me. And then if he loses the. Oh, by the way, the USC game is on Saturday.

::

Joe Gagliano

I'll get him to fix the USC game for me on Saturday. And I'll just fly right to Vegas from Arizona. That was my warped thinking.

::

Pat McCalla

another phone call. You should have hung up.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah, yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

That seems to be the general theme of my life, right?

::

Joe Gagliano

So I get there. I actually fighter, I bring a duffle bag, a 2.5 million bucks. I fly off to Arizona State by myself. I got a duffel bag over my shoulder. I got 2.5 million bucks. I scalp a ticket in the Wells Fargo parking lot, and I'm sitting maybe seven, eight rows off the floor with a duffel bag over my shoulder, watching by myself

::

Joe Gagliano

the.

::

Pat McCalla

duffel bag of cash in the arena.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

I'm sitting there watching the UCLA ASU game.

::

Joe Gagliano

And Pat, it was probably one of the best basketball games I've ever watched in my life. I mean, Arizona State, they were ahead a little bit. They were tied. They were ahead. They were down by a point or two back and forth. And what I noticed was.

::

Joe Gagliano

Steven just playing with such grit and passion, just refuse, carried that whole team on his back.

::

Joe Gagliano

And so literally he had Arizona State plus four and

::

Joe Gagliano

was back and forth, back and forth, back and forth under a minute to go.

::

Joe Gagliano

UCLA goes up by two. Arizona State brings the ball down. Court they miss are UCLA gets the ball back again. They end up fouling UCLA and Big George. That goes to the free throw line with like three seconds four seconds left or whatever it was.

::

Joe Gagliano

And he makes both free throws.

::

Joe Gagliano

So now you UCLA is up by four. So there is not a four point field goal that could be scored at all. So UCLA is up by for 2 or 3 seconds on the clock. And the arena is pretty much quiet because you know at that point the home team is going to lose right.

::

Joe Gagliano

But I distinctly hear and I talked to Stephen about this as well. I distinctly hear headache on the court yell to his teammate, give me the effing ball.

::

Joe Gagliano

And so really, you watch this footage and it's it's in the it's in the it's in the documentary as well. Yep. You watch this footage where literally the picture this if you could, you've got he just Zetec just makes the second free throw the benches all stand up.

::

Joe Gagliano

The coaches start to walk towards midfield. Coaches start to walk towards half court to do the congratulate free handshakes. Right. Other nine players on the courts are all like shaking or whatever. A good game, good sportsmanship. Ryan headache yells give me the effing ball! He's sprinting up court in a dribble. You know enough mad dribble plants behind the three point line and fires a shot and it rims out.

::

Joe Gagliano

It doesn't go in and he drops to all four. Like completely dejected, completely dejected. No,

::

Joe Gagliano

My eyeballs are saying,

::

Joe Gagliano

well, he's dejected because he just lost 22,000 bucks because that shot, even if it went in, they still lose the game by one. Yeah, it does it. But he wins. He wins 20 grand at that point. Yeah. So he's dejected because now he's saying shoot, I'm back in the hole again.

::

Joe Gagliano

I owe these guys in Chicago 22,000 and oh by the way we just lost to the number three team in the nation.

::

Joe Gagliano

so that's what led to game three is now

::

Joe Gagliano

one and two. We should have been done. I went home at 3 million bucks. 23 years, all about to get married. I should have been on cloud nine.

::

Joe Gagliano

Everything was good, right?

::

Joe Gagliano

Game three was led because our headaches. Personal best on his own team against UCLA. So rather than him owing me 22,000 bucks, I called him up that night and I said, hey, here's another way you can get out of it. You got UCLA coming to town. We got USC coming to town on Saturday.

::

Joe Gagliano

Give me that game.

::

Joe Gagliano

I said, okay, so that's what led to game three. Game three LED was was emanated from from him losing 22,000 bucks. Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

So what was the total that you made after all

::

Joe Gagliano

these.

::

Joe Gagliano

So so game three then. So literally we watched the game three

::

Joe Gagliano

game itself in Las Vegas. I had bet 2.5 million bucks in Vegas on game three. And probably about another two, three, 400,000 bucks with sportsbooks.

::

Joe Gagliano

now I don't even think game three needed to be fixed.

::

Joe Gagliano

I just think UCLA maybe it was ASU having a letdown

::

Joe Gagliano

from the

::

Joe Gagliano

UCLA game a couple days earlier, or because Arizona State just came out flat and the the point guard for USC really had his way with which step in that day?

::

Joe Gagliano

He was a good kid. He was good player, too.

::

Joe Gagliano

He ended up playing a little bit in the pros, afterwards. But,

::

Joe Gagliano

so I, I'm done with game three, and I've got north of 5 million bucks. I've got north of five.

::

Joe Gagliano

My kind of

::

Pat McCalla

started this. That's when you had the $5 million in the duffel bag. The very first time I meet you. That's when you're telling me about that. And I'm like, you can't fit five in a duffel

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah,

::

Pat McCalla

Yeah, so

::

Pat McCalla

that would have been a good time to quit, too.

::

Joe Gagliano

It would have.

::

Joe Gagliano

But at that point, the proverbial cat was already out of the bag. I mean, there was

::

Joe Gagliano

there were so many red flags on the betting line for the UCLA, for the USC game as well. I was in Vegas and trying not to move the numbers, trying not to fill out CTL reports.

::

Joe Gagliano

And and you'd see a lot of kids with ASU sweatshirts on betting 20s and

::

Joe Gagliano

hundred dollar bills. Like like they knew the final score. So,

::

Joe Gagliano

word was out of Penny had spilled the beans, and a lot of the college kids already knew what was going on at that point.

::

Pat McCalla

So, Joe, let me let me ask you, this is a good question. I actually read a question similar to this. It was asked of Mike Tyson by Sports Illustrated one time. And they said, if you're 22 year old self with them, they said 18. If you're 18 year old, self was listening to this episode, in your case, 22 year old self was listening this episode.

::

Pat McCalla

What truth would you tell him that he didn't want to hear back then that might have changed his thinking?

::

Pat McCalla

What do you think you could say to 22 year old Joe, 23 year old Joe, that would have caused you to hang up the phone?

::

Host

As we're wrapping up this episode. Be sure to leave us a five star review. And if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment on something you'll take away. All right, let's hop back into the remainder of the episode.

::

Joe Gagliano

Man. What would I have said that would have resonated?

::

Pat McCalla

Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

Because that's the difference. You know, these kids,

::

Joe Gagliano

I say these kids as a general type of synopsis, but it's hard to say something to a kid and have it resonate with them,

::

Joe Gagliano

you know?

::

Joe Gagliano

True.

::

Joe Gagliano

It's like when you talk to my son,

::

Joe Gagliano

he looks up to you. When I talk to my son, it's, my my dad's nagging me. My dad's just telling me something.

::

Joe Gagliano

it's who's the voice? Who's the messaging coming from? So there's different thoughts. So

::

Pat McCalla

by the way really quick because I'm gonna let you finish. But you answered that very similar to how Mike Tyson did. I always loved his answer because he said to that Sports Illustrated. Interviewer. He goes, nothing I say would have resonated with that 18 year, my 18 year old self. I wouldn't listen to anybody, including myself, from the future, which is interesting.

::

Pat McCalla

But you're saying you're kind of making the point that

::

Pat McCalla

It would have taken some work to have something said to 23 year old Joe that would have resonated with you, that what I caused you to hang up. But do you think there's anything like if if you would have said, I'm Joe from the future.

::

Joe Gagliano

I would have told myself. But once again, it was it. The messaging was coming for myself. I probably would have been too stupid to listen if the messaging what it came from someone like my dad or someone that were really had

::

Joe Gagliano

mentor ship in my in my life that I would have listened to. But if I was my older self going back to my younger self and saying it, I would have I would have basically

::

Joe Gagliano

honed in on there are no shortcuts

::

Joe Gagliano

nothing good ever comes out of anything easy.

::

Pat McCalla

That's so good. Yeah,

::

Pat McCalla

Well, and I love what you said about your dad, too, though, Joe, that that,

::

Pat McCalla

when you called him, if he would have, if he would have said. Joe, what are you doing? Or he called you Joey, right? Joey, what are you doing?

::

Pat McCalla

would.

::

Pat McCalla

Have shocked you into probably saying, like, what am I doing? Like, he's the one that might have had that voice.

::

Joe Gagliano

Well, I would hope so. Or I might have been to pig 18 and to for myself at that age, because I was doing really well and I was thinking I was invincible. I think that I knew where all the bodies were buried, and I might have just been stupid, pigheaded myself to just. But I want to believe I would have listened to my dad.

::

Joe Gagliano

I do.

::

Pat McCalla

Let me read you a couple of quotes from your book. No grey areas.

::

Pat McCalla

Audience. We're gonna do some free book giveaways. Signed copies. So highly recommend, getting this or trying to get one of these free copies signed by Joe. But this is right towards the end of the book. And now that the audience kind of heard this story, they're gonna resonate with how powerful this is.

::

Pat McCalla

You said the early life choices I made allowed me to wrongly think that grey areas were acceptable spaces to play in. At first, those simple grey areas seemed innocent enough. Over time, the decision I made small grains of sand at the time grew into mountains of pain and suffering with those moral mountains in front of me

::

Pat McCalla

it started these little decisions, like

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah. grey areas. Yeah. Turned

::

Pat McCalla

into

::

Pat McCalla

what you said, mountains of pain and suffering. And of course, if we fast forward in time, you ended up doing, prison time. You guys ended up getting caught. It cost Steven his career, his pro career here, most likely. So you guys pay dearly for that. But what you said there, I think is so important because.

::

Pat McCalla

And that's really.

::

Pat McCalla

Why.

::

Pat McCalla

You insist that the movie that we're in the process of making be called no grey areas because that's your passion, right.

::

Joe Gagliano

Just really want to make sure that that the cautionary tale is told. So there are no shortcuts. And

::

Joe Gagliano

once you come to grips with compromising your integrity, where do you stop?

::

Pat McCalla

Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

know, maybe at first it's a little white lie, then that the white lie gets to be your norm, because then you can't really just differentiate between the truth and between a lie.

::

Joe Gagliano

Or let's say

::

Joe Gagliano

you go shopping and you steal a pack of gum. You're like, okay, well,

::

Joe Gagliano

theory, oh, it's a $1 pack of gum. It's not, it's not, a felony, but it's still you're compromising yourself. So that pack of gum turns into

::

Joe Gagliano

you know, ribeyes for your family one night, or turns into a car or turns into thefts in some capacity so

::

Joe Gagliano

it morphs into a body of its own at that point.

::

Joe Gagliano

And that that's where I was going with that thing. No matter, once you compromise your integrity, it's a slippery slope. It just doesn't end.

::

Pat McCalla

Let me read you another quote from this. And I know you remember these because you typed this on an old fashioned typewriter in prison.

::

Joe Gagliano

That's that's exactly right.

::

Pat McCalla

I want you to hear that and understand that that's such a cool thing. So I can just picture you in your dark little cell with this old fashioned typewriter.

::

Pat McCalla

You know?

::

Joe Gagliano

With no correction tape either. Yeah. So I'm so flipping anal when I get to the bottom of the page, and I

::

Joe Gagliano

type a wrong key, I'd have to type the whole page over again.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah,

::

Pat McCalla

Well, here's what you write again. This is right near the end of the book. You say any choice we make needs to be solely based on whether it's right or wrong. Your choice must

::

Pat McCalla

please an audience of one. You must be able to stand proud of your decision. What do you mean when you say your choice must please an audience of one?

::

Joe Gagliano

It's my own personal litmus test, so to speak. You know, obviously, you and I are of of faith, and I learn. I lean on you quite a bit. You being the one that never graduated from Bible college.

::

Pat McCalla

You love to bring that up, don't you?

::

Joe Gagliano

I love to bring it up. Yeah, but you still always learning.

::

Joe Gagliano

But you came close, though. Yes,

::

Joe Gagliano

but you went to Moody's, and obviously you're just wickedly intelligent with Bible and scriptures. And I lean on you

::

Joe Gagliano

often for advice, just like my family does as well. But,

::

Joe Gagliano

You know, faith is the focus, the foundation that we, myself and my family stand on,

::

Joe Gagliano

goes along with our foundation as well. Operation Joy,

::

Joe Gagliano

Joy being an acronym for Jesus, others and you. So faith is really important to me. So when I when I say it's my litmus test audience of one,

::

Joe Gagliano

I stopped trying to perform for others.

::

Joe Gagliano

I stopped trying to live under this B.S. perception where I need to be the big shot or I need to, you know,

::

Joe Gagliano

wow other people and have a bigger house and nicer things and everything else and saying, you know, what are my actions?

::

Joe Gagliano

Pleasing my audience. Oh one now I know who my audience for one is now for someone else.

::

Joe Gagliano

They might not align with that, but that's fine. Whatever your audience of one is, maybe it's your mom, maybe it's your dad, maybe it's a mentor. Maybe it's someone you look up to.

::

Joe Gagliano

your actions can be compliant and pleasing to them,

::

Joe Gagliano

that should be your baseline of how you how you conduct yourself.

::

Pat McCalla

I think Joe, the reason that I love that quote so much and I think it's so important and I hope our audience gets this.

::

Pat McCalla

it's maybe one of the single most important lessons that we can learn. And we'll probably spend our whole life trying to learn, because most of us at some level become people pleasers. You know,

::

Pat McCalla

depending on your personality

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah,

::

Pat McCalla

but we end up trying to, you know, in junior high and high school, you're trying to get your friends to like you and you, and it's the peer pressure and everything.

::

Pat McCalla

But if we can get to the point in our life where we do what you say here at the end of the book where we truly go like it's it's the audience, a one for me. And if you're a person of faith, most of our listeners are people of faith. But if you're person of faith, that's probably God.

::

Pat McCalla

That,

::

Pat McCalla

mean, there's no way we can even imagine the positive impact that's going to have in

::

Joe Gagliano

Now, at the end of the day, that's that's the only gauge that we can gauge ourselves. I mean, I can't even gauge myself on you anymore because you're just as jacked up as I am. I mean, that that text you gave me last night when you yelling at some customer service lady that didn't ship your your electronics the right way.

::

Joe Gagliano

And so.

::

Joe Gagliano

You know, so I can't even go to you anymore by saying, okay, give me the voice of reason. Be my barometer. You're not even my barometer anymore.

::

Joe Gagliano

So

::

Pat McCalla

for the audience.

::

Pat McCalla

So they know it was one of those situations. I spent about an hour and a half on the phone, talking to someone from another country that didn't understand English

::

Pat McCalla

by the end of it, I was so frustrated and angry.

::

Pat McCalla

Yes, I.

::

Pat McCalla

Texted

::

Joe Gagliano

said,

::

Pat McCalla

hey, just so you know, I'm jacked up to. I had to spend some time confessing to my.

::

Pat McCalla

Wife and God

::

Joe Gagliano

because I just lost it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

::

Pat McCalla

so, Joe, what what would you say as we kind of wrap this up, like, where

::

Pat McCalla

is this place in your life? You said you're 57.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

What would you say, first of all, to people who are maybe listening to this and have made a decision in their past because a lot of us have. You did prison time for years.

::

Pat McCalla

Most of us didn't get caught and haven't done

::

Joe Gagliano

Like,

::

Pat McCalla

but they can't get over that mistake they made. What have you done in your life that help you move?

::

Pat McCalla

beyond that, you never get beyond it completely because you have to like you live with it.

::

Pat McCalla

the felony title. Like,

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah.

::

Joe Gagliano

I mean, carrying that label of a convicted felon is absolutely brutal. It's brutal. And, you know, they they talk about,

::

Joe Gagliano

trying to rehabilitate and everything. The system just doesn't allow it. The system doesn't allow it. And believe me, the last thing I ever want to do is play victim. That's just not

::

Joe Gagliano

not what I'm trying to do.

::

Joe Gagliano

Not how I'm wired. But you say, what would I what would I say is that there are no shortcuts.

::

Joe Gagliano

There is no easy way. There is no grey area. There are no grey areas.

::

Joe Gagliano

when you look at things in life there, there is either right or wrong or there's black or white.

::

Joe Gagliano

once you start convincing yourself that something

::

Joe Gagliano

is acceptable, that's going to become your norm. And I think that's what I would caution people to stay away from. It's we're all products of our environment. We're all products of the consequences of our life choices. And so that's what we're doing. And that's what you guys have done so well.

::

Joe Gagliano

We're building off this platform,

::

Joe Gagliano

as we realize that choices have consequences.

::

Joe Gagliano

And you're, you're the one that's in control of your choices. So you're going to control the consequences that come along with it.

::

Pat McCalla

Which is why we really that's kind of the theme of this podcast, right. We, we, we the power and complexity of human choice that we make, our choices and eventually our choices make us. And that's your story.

::

Joe Gagliano

Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

But

::

Pat McCalla

your choices and your wrong choices that you made were younger. It's not the it's not the finished story, though.

::

Pat McCalla

And that's what I love about your story,

::

Joe Gagliano

It's it. Yeah. It's not the finished story part because you know, we're all jacked up. I mean, I say that all time. Yeah, we're all jacked up. We're flawed.

::

Joe Gagliano

what I in information age, it's just deadly. You know that as well as I do. I mean, people Google me.

::

Joe Gagliano

they see convicted felon, they see stuff, and, you know, fine.

::

Joe Gagliano

Whatever. But that's their perception of what I'm about now. I know, and it's taken me time, taken me time in a lot of different ways. And my warped mind to sort through some things that I know I'm not that person. And so I'm okay with that.

::

Joe Gagliano

what I have found and where I find solace, so to speak, is the ones that I want to

::

Joe Gagliano

pass judgment or the ones that want to play this holier than thou BS game that they want to play

::

Joe Gagliano

are more than likely the ones with more skeletons in their own closet, like

::

Joe Gagliano

I and I see this bad and and and you know me well

::

Joe Gagliano

enough. I don't think there's a secret that I have kept from you and

::

Joe Gagliano

you're involved in everything we're doing as a family, everything we're doing business wise.

::

Joe Gagliano

It's people's perception of what reality is, is really sometimes very deflating because you can't outlive, I can't deal with what happened.

::

Joe Gagliano

every business deal we do every time we go to get insurance, whether it's banks or whatever it is, they pull up this report and,

::

Pat McCalla

yeah,

::

Joe Gagliano

you know, it's out there.

::

Joe Gagliano

But so when I say the ones that claim holier than thou have more skeletons in their own closet, I truly believe that

::

Joe Gagliano

my skeletons are painfully written inside that 250 page book. I didn't leave anything out. I put dirt in there. I put things that I'm not proud of. I put things that I wish I could take back and wish I can change.

::

Joe Gagliano

The only thing I didn't put was personal things that pertain to

::

Joe Gagliano

my relationships with people I love.

::

Joe Gagliano

My relationship with my wife, my relationship with my kids. I didn't, but any choice that I made myself is in that book. So,

::

Joe Gagliano

t because of what happened in:

::

Joe Gagliano

But let me probe into your kitchen. Let me see how. Let me see how clean that kitchen is. And I guarantee you there'll be more mess than mine. Mess my messes out there for the public to see.

::

Pat McCalla

And we've talked about that numerous times, the two of us and I think I think you're right. Well Joe man, thank you so much. And I would really encourage our audience. No grey areas. Great book. We got a movie coming out that we're working on. Right. I

::

Joe Gagliano

That's a process that's a process. Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

but love the script.

::

Pat McCalla

Documentary. If they haven't seen that, they got to go to Netflix and watch that bad sport documentary. We're going to do a book giveaway. Like we said, any last words before we go?

::

Joe Gagliano

No, I'm just super thankful for what you're doing.

::

Joe Gagliano

Thankful to have you in my life. Riley and Peyton, what they're doing in the whole no grey areas team

::

Joe Gagliano

and hopefully we just keep effectuating change. Yeah.

::

Pat McCalla

Well.

::

Pat McCalla

Joe, I honor you for caring so much about making a difference

::

Joe Gagliano

Thank you.

::

Pat McCalla

like the foundation. Like this podcast. Like the book, like the movie where you really are trying to do that. So I appreciate

::

Joe Gagliano

it.

::

Joe Gagliano

Thank you brother.

::

Host

Thanks for tuning in to this special anniversary episode with Joe and I. We've had the privilege of recording over 120 episodes since the podcast began, and we're so appreciative of our listeners. Be sure to send this episode to someone and subscribe to the No grey Areas podcast on YouTube to never miss an episode. We'll see you next time here at no grey Areas.

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About the Podcast

No Grey Areas
Hosted by Patrick McCalla
Life is a series of choices, and every choice you make ultimately makes you. The “No Grey Areas Podcast” is a motivational podcast platform with captivating guests centered around how our choices humanize, empower, and define who we become. The podcast was influenced by the story of Joseph Gagliano, the man who coordinated the largest college basketball sports scandal in 1994. No Grey Areas shares the underlying message that our choices, big or small, pave our future destiny.

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