Overcoming a Victim Mindset to having a Survivor Mentality | Ep. 53 with Christi Decoufle
The world is getting darker by the minute…therefore, a lot of us may carry the weight of shame and pain from something that was done to us. We may be hiding behind shadows of secrets, past experiences, or negative outcomes that have happened to us in our lives.
However, you can’t become stronger if all you do is cover up your hurt and pain. Becoming a survivor starts with you acknowledging the truth that you WERE a victim.
This week's guest on the No Grey Areas podcast, Christi Decoufle, helps us recognize the wrong done to us, how to bring it to light, and experience healing. Covering up your scars only leads to more darkness. Now is the time to stop saying "I am a victim" and start saying "I am a survivor."
The NO GREY AREAS platform is about the power, importance, and complexity of choices. We host motivating and informative interviews with captivating guests from all walks of life about learning and growing through our good and bad choices.
The purpose behind it all derives from the cautionary tale of Joseph N. Gagliano and one of sports’ greatest scandals.
To know more about the true story of Joe Gagliano, check out the link below!
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Transcript
Speaker 1
Welcome back to the No Go Areas podcast. This week's guest is an amazing individual. I was working with her about a decade and a half ago. Back then, when I worked with her. Her face was kind of blurred out and she was part of an undercover sting, which I hope makes you want to listen to this podcast. Join us now.
::Speaker 1
We've known each other since: ::Speaker 2
Something like we were just.
::Speaker 1
Talking about that. So we're going back a little bit and it means that you and I are just getting a little older.
::Speaker 2
And I know.
::Speaker 1
But that's I mean, well, I think that's over almost a decade and a half ago.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, it's been a long time. I think in such a long time. You're still going to learn a lot about me today. Yeah.
::Speaker 1
actually first met because in: ::Speaker 1
rescued a 16 year old girl. I think she was 16, wasn't she? That was stalker case. And I was just sitting there going, What?
::Speaker 2
Right.
::Speaker 1
Like Thailand or the Philippines. Yeah.
::Speaker 2
But that's what most everybody. Yeah.
::Speaker 1
But yeah. So that launched this on a journey and a quest And you and I were part of this journey for quite a while. You were actually working a lot longer than I was, but we made a documentary, and that's where I met you in our documentary. I can't believe that you're the vice squad you were on allowed us to come in and shoot.
::Speaker 2
I couldn't either. And I was so thankful because especially now, I look back and I think because, like you said, nobody nobody thought about it as being in the United States. And people don't just listen to us very often. You know, it's the police. And and so it was great to be in partnership with that and really start to get that that word out there.
::Speaker 2
And. Yeah, and really Phenix in general was has been from the get go on the forefront of of the anti-trafficking movement and I really I owe it I believe it it started with that and so I think that's super awesome.
::Speaker 1
Oh it was amazing because we actually had people coming in from around the country and even around the world because there was this multisector collaboration. We had the FBI and the police and the government officials and opseu and churches and all these different sectors of society working together. It was amazing.
::Speaker 2
It was it was really amazing. And that doesn't happen very often. Yeah.
::Speaker 1
But you guys were the tip of the spear on it. So let me let me back up a little bit. So again, the audience is hurt a little bit. Obviously, you were a police officer with the vice squad. So let's back up. I just learned you're actually from Kansas City.
::Speaker 2
That's where you grew up. Yes. So I grew up in Kansas City and I left there right when I turned 18. Like, right, right. When I graduated high school, I said, I'm out of here now. It's funny. I you know, when you grow up somewhere, you're like, come out. And then now I love it now. And I'm like, Yeah, it's home.
::Speaker 2
I go back off to my my mother still lives there. I actually just spent the I just got back in town. I was there for almost six weeks visiting family and working from there and working out of my mom's basement.
::Speaker 1
So side question. Yeah. Have you been to achieve something?
::Speaker 2
Oh, every year. Really? Yeah. And my brother, it's.
::Speaker 1
Amazing how loud.
::Speaker 2
It is. You will never experience anything like it. My brother lives in Chicago and he actually has season tickets still to the to the Chiefs. And he flies and flies. Yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't make the kind of money that my little brother does. You have season tickets to the Chiefs, but the city is an amazing city and I love it there.
::Speaker 1
So did you come to Phenix from there?
::Speaker 2
No. I moved around a lot in college. I was trying to find myself, so I started. All right. That's kind of what college is all about, right? So I. I originally thought I wanted to be an architect. That was my life's work and goal, and so I got it.
::Speaker 1
So just. Yeah, that's so interesting because I knew you from the days you were a cop, right? And the Christie I know, I can't imagine isn't.
::Speaker 2
Well, it didn't last long.
::Speaker 1
Had you had you wanted to be an architect since you were like a little girl?
::Speaker 2
No, I was in high school. I took some drafting classes and I started getting really interested in that. And and so that just were what I thought I wanted to do. And so I worked really hard to get into this. Kansas State University had a really great architecture program, and, you know, so I got my eyes focused on that and I got into that program and I went there and it quickly one semester and I was like, Nope, this is not for me because you sit in this like cubicle and you have to redo drawings over and over, you know, like you're constantly tweaking these little things.
::Speaker 2
And I about lost my mind. I'm too much of a people person. Yeah. And so I did a little deep soul searching at the ripe age of 18 and and said, I think I'm going to be a psychology major. And my mom about lost her mind because in her mind, you know, I was an architect. I was going to be a very successful architect in psychology going to do with that.
::Speaker 2
And I'm like, I have no idea, but this is not for me. So I switched majors and started on psychology. But I was at K-State, which is near a military base, and I was in ROTC. Okay, There's an Army ROTC, a scholarship, and that's how I was paying for my school and and all of that stuff. So I met a boy.
::Speaker 2
I was a boy chaser for a bit when I was young. And yeah, so I met a boy that was in the Army. And so he got out of the Army and wanted to go back home to Texas.
::Speaker 1
Actually. Sounds like a song title, right?
::Speaker 2
I had a boy in the Army, so I followed him to Texas and I switched schools because I wanted to.
::Speaker 1
We're in Texas.
::Speaker 2
Houston. Okay. So I changed schools and I went to the University of Houston. So I continued on with my ROTC and I continued on with my psychology major. Yep. And did that for a couple of years there. And it was a very different environment. Living in Houston, I hated it. It was humid, I liked the warmth, but I hated the humidity.
::Speaker 2
And I it was but it was very different environment. I didn't really like it. We broke up. I met a new boy. I followed him to Cincinnati. Okay. Kentucky area in the country. Right, Exactly. So I was kind of in this mode of I'm going to get my degree and I'm going to stick with what I'm going to do.
::Speaker 2
But in the meantime, I just saw go anywhere because I was just open to trying new things. And my poor my poor mother, I was giving her a heart attack along the way. I'm still a psych major, though. I was still a psych major. I was still in ROTC. I was I was still sticking with my goals, but I was still just whatever, following, whatever.
::Speaker 2
And so I ended up in like the north. I went to Northern Kentucky University, but they did not have an ROTC programs, which is right on the border of since it's in Cincinnati, like right on the border of Ohio, Kentucky. So I went to Xavier University for all my ROTC classes. And so I ended up graduating from Northern Kentucky and I got my military commission from Xavier.
::Speaker 2
Okay. So I actually went to like, what, four or five different colleges by the time it was all said and done. But I it took me five years instead of four because I kept, you know, losing a little credits as I was moving around. But I eventually graduated and I got my commission. But back then you had the ability to choose if you want to do reserves or active duty with the with these scholarship.
::Speaker 2
And I chose to do reserves because I was ready to go.
::Speaker 1
Do you want to do a career?
::Speaker 2
Yeah, right. But I still didn't really know what I wanted to do. And so I got a job at the local jail as a behavioral health therapist in the jail, in the county jail. And so I was basically counseling criminals. Your mom.
::Speaker 1
Really excited? Yeah.
::Speaker 2
She was way from really loving it. Really loving you. Yeah. She was just shaking her head at me every day. But that was probably my first introduction because at first I thought, I want to be a child psychologist. And then But during school I did like an internship with a child psychologist, and I was like, No, thanks. No, thank you.
::Speaker 2
I wasn't quite ready, wasn't quite ready for that. But the criminal element was interesting to me and well, I don't know. I don't know. But as soon as I started working in it, it just clicked. It just. It just clicked. Which I guess that's to me, that's why I keep telling our kids that that's what it's that's what college is about.
::Speaker 2
That's what that your, your early twenties is. Just keep trying new things until you find what clicks for you. You're not you're not going to know. Yeah. You know I'm like your other.
::Speaker 1
Another side issue. Isn't it sad? I think so. Often in our culture we almost expect like that 16 year old, 17 years going into their senior in high school. What are you going to do? Yeah, like, like an 18 year old knows what they're gonna do with the rest of your life. So, so many, I think, say, I'm going to do this, but deep down they're like, I.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. And, and I hate that. Like the young kids right now, I think they feel like a failure if they, like, change their major or they don't stick with it. I'm like, No, that's what you're supposed to do. You're being successful, actually. And continuing to if you fail, you're being successful at that age because that's your learning that that wasn't the right thing for you.
::Speaker 2
Keep going. Yeah. You know what? What makes you fails if you stop? Keep going. Yeah. If you stop, keep going. That doesn't, that doesn't quite.
::Speaker 1
You know, we might, you know, we might title this podcast.
::Speaker 2
Stop, stop. Keep going, keep going. So anyway, I did that for a little bit and, and then I just the cold in Cincinnati. I was just like, where can I go that it's warm again but not so humid and I just started that, you know, AOL was big back then and I was getting on the Internet and kind of playing around and I'm like, Let's try Arizona.
::Speaker 2
And so I looked out here for jobs and there was an opening for a probation officer out here. And I thought, well, that sounds kind of interesting. So I hopped on a plane and came out here and applied for a job and got it. And I got I had a little Dodge Neon at the time. And so I went back in the middle of winter.
::Speaker 2
It snowed. I could hardly get my car out. I had a little U-Haul that I hooked on the back of my Dodge Neon in a in February, and I drove from Cincinnati to Phenix, and by the time I got to Phenix, I pretty much dropped the transmission out of my car. But I. But I got here.
::Speaker 1
If you were running from the cold, I bet you loved.
::Speaker 2
It in February. It was wonderful. I was in heaven. Yeah. And then my first summer, I was like, What do you do? How did I do?
::Speaker 1
But you wanted to run back.
::Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah, I know, but I figured it out. So I was a probation officer for a few years and I was a probation officer. I was supervising sex offenders. Yeah. And that was super interesting to me. I was. I got to sit in with on some counseling sessions with their. Their groups. Yeah. Which was really intriguing, you know, from a psychology major that was really intriguing for me.
::Speaker 2
So. So it's my the, the criminal part and the psychology part started it started overlapping, right? And while as a probation officer, I worked very closely with the police department, I started working with a couple of squads in South Phenix pretty regularly when I would have people that had warrants that needed to be picked up. They were like, Well, you want to come with us like once a month and we'll do a roundup and round up all your people that have warrants.
::Speaker 2
And so so I would go ride with them and it was a lot of fun. And at the time when I was a probation officer, I would go out and do visits with people. But back then, probation officers, you drove your own vehicle. You didn't they didn't wear vests. They didn't have weapons. I had a block radio and by myself.
::Speaker 2
And I'd go out and I.
::Speaker 1
In your Dodge.
::Speaker 2
Neon in my Dodge Neon, and I would I would be like visiting these people at their homes unexpected. And you catch them doing I mean, it's really dangerous. It was really dangerous, I imagine. And so I started doing stuff with the police department. I'm like, that's a lot safer of a job than this. And they were kind of recruiting me.
::Speaker 2
They're like, You should come apply for the police department, which never in my life I hadn't really thought about being a police officer, but I was like, okay.
::Speaker 1
So fast forward your last last year.
::Speaker 2
Last year, last December, my.
::Speaker 1
Wife and I were invited. Thank you very much.
::Speaker 2
Yes.
::Speaker 1
To your retirement.
::Speaker 2
So, yes, you.
::Speaker 1
Decided to be a police officer. And was it 21 years that you put in?
::Speaker 2
. Started in: ::Speaker 1
22 years. And clearly, it's your retirement celebration. You were very, very, very respected by the police department, by the people you worked with. You had people that were coming back in and speaking that had worked with you years before. People that had worked with you toward the end. Yeah, Great, great people. Well, this is where we met. So.
::Speaker 1
So you become a police officer. How long were before you joined the Voice Vice Squad?
::Speaker 2
So I joined I started in: ::Speaker 1
Many times I've heard you.
::Speaker 2
Already say I.
::Speaker 1
Started doing something because that seems.
::Speaker 2
Interesting is interesting. And then I do. I do. I'll try.
::Speaker 1
That. So. So you just decide. That sounds interesting. Why don't I go to that? Right.
::Speaker 2
And then and it became my calling it. I had no idea. I had no idea. And it was it was my first year there that the the the child that was in the cage, that was then the kennel was found and that was like the first. But honestly, I didn't do that case. I was on a different case around the same time.
::Speaker 2
That got a lot of media attention, but I right around the same time, I had my first case with this 15 year old girl and she just she, she she wasn't she wasn't in like a group home. She was she had been home with her family. She got coerced into it. I can't I can't even remember now how she met the guy because online things weren't big back then.
::Speaker 2
I can't remember. I mean, he was at a bus stop or something like that. Yeah, I know, but I can't remember how she met him originally. But I remember talking with her and walking away thinking, you know, I mean, she just was a pretty smart, pretty confident young lady that really got duped and and then got stuck and and I just think I just remember thinking to myself, that could have been me.
::Speaker 2
I could have been that at 15, I could see how that could have I could have fallen for that. And it really hit me. And and it just became my like, mission to help figure this out. And that was your first. It was. That was my first.
::Speaker 1
Your first. Your first case, Basically.
::Speaker 2
My first. My first. Like where I wasn't just helping out was like my first case as it was my case. And I, I still remember her name. Yeah. And it's interesting cause I still keep in contact, even from people that I met. I mean, way back then, like, I still try to follow up with some of those girls.
::Speaker 2
Some of them want to stay in contact and and some of them don't, which I understand as well, because, yeah, it's sometimes it's a positive experience and sometimes it's not.
::Speaker 1
So that was what was the amazing part when I worked with you those years in this with this issue is you you do have such an interesting combination that you had or blend that you had where you were, you know, that you were supporting the law and you're trying to arrest the johns and the pimps and the and the the girls that are involved in this.
::Speaker 1
But then there was this compassionate side, too. And now I'm hearing where you're saying it came from, where you realize this 15 year old, this first case you took, you like that? That could have been me.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Well, every one of these girls. I said, girls, it's boys, too. But for the majority of my career and the majority of of the victims that I dealt with were young women or children. And it's unfortunate because I think a lot of the boys and young men are just too afraid. Everybody's afraid to speak. But there there's an extra layer there of things that have why they don't report.
::Speaker 2
And it's I'm hoping now I mean, that was, you know, years ago when this was all first starting. I'm hoping that things are better now and that they're reporting more now. I'm hoping things are different. I know I haven't been in the trafficking world for a little while, but I every single person has a story and a reason that they ended up there and and it's they're all worth listening to.
::Speaker 1
And that's so powerful, what you said. They're all worth listening to because you've heard far more stories than than I did. But even the stories I heard. So when we were making the documentary with your team and I don't know if you remember that night where we were in your mom minivan. Oh, you're undercover, Mommy.
::Speaker 2
I loved my minivans. I went through like four different minivans. I loved having minivans.
::Speaker 1
So. So it was a sting operation where we're right, we were arresting in this in this case, it was the girls. And you guys did all kinds of sometimes the johns obviously going after the pimps mainly. But that night you allowed us, if the girls were willing to for us to go interview and I'll never forget again was one of the moments for me your 15 year old first case this was kind of my first case and the beautiful young woman and she'd been arrested.
::Speaker 1
And we went in and we asked her, you know, were you under age when you were first turned out? And she said, No, I was 21. It was my boyfriend and I, but it was almost like the switch flipped for her because in that in that conversation, she said, well, I mean, actually when I was 13 or 14, I remember the exact age my mom would send people down the hallway to my room to support a drug habit.
::Speaker 1
And it was like this was this woman and she.
::Speaker 2
Was turned out.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, well, she's for the first time realizing that her first pimp was her mom and she's 13 or 14 years old. And, you know, so when you say every story, every every every survivor has has a story worth listening to.
::Speaker 2
Some sometimes they don't see themselves as victims at will most times. And it takes a while. They have to go through their own process, just like we all have to go through our own process, right? They have to go through their own process of even seeing themselves as a victim and then how to see themselves as a survivor and not as a victim anymore and and go.
::Speaker 2
But you never see yourself as a survivor if you don't first see yourself as a victim. You know, like you have to acknowledge that, you know, and, you.
::Speaker 1
Know, see that in those you can't you you almost didn't finish that.
::Speaker 2
Sentence. But that's truth. Yeah. You don't see yourself a survivor. If you never see yourself as a victim. You have to you have to acknowledge because people want to be so strong all the time and always put up this front all the time. And if you don't ever acknowledge that, yeah, you know, like this happened to me and I came out of it stronger and better and whatever, you know, you have to We all have things that, you know.
::Speaker 1
That's so good.
::Speaker 2
Sometimes it's things that happen to us and sometimes we, we make bad choices and then things happen, you know?
::Speaker 1
But they're still bad things.
::Speaker 2
They're still bad things. I mean, I'm not really thrilled that I chased boys around the country, you know? But I learned a lot and it got me to where I am. And, you know, you have to try to take the good with the bad and keep moving forward and going.
::Speaker 1
Way back to your psychology classes, though, Right? I think there's a life lesson there for all of our listeners. Listeners, though, because there's probably a few of our listeners that have maybe been trafficked. But there's there's like you said, there's something where you can go back and go, Oh, I was victimized. We live in a broken world, right?
::Speaker 1
You know, who knows what it was? But there was something that was done to you that was probably wrong and hurtful and that you have to go back and admit that was wrong and hurtful. I got to deal with it, right? That's right.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. You can't just covered up because then you'll never move forward. You don't become stronger and move forward if you just cover it up. Yeah, I'm a big believer in that.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, for sure. Well, I want to come back to some of this moment, but let me just jump into this, because this was you. We when we were working with you guys, I mean, you I could I couldn't quit bragging about this documentary. And we ended up showing it, like, all over the country in some ways. And then as you know, all over our city, sometimes to 20 people, sometimes to hundreds of people.
::Speaker 1
And so, I mean, we had a survivor that was there and then you and other vice officers would come and speak often. And it was just amazing. But I got to brag on that vice squad again. At that time, there was something unique about the Phenix Vice Squad compared to any other vice squad in the country. Really? What was that?
::Speaker 2
It still is this way. I think that we have been very lucky to have had the right people. You know, we just we people, you we happened to get a good group of people that worked here, that cared, that really deeply cared. The men and the women, you know, sometimes like, oh, it has to be female. No, it didn't.
::Speaker 2
You have to have it's a team effort. And and the men in the women equally really cared and really wanted to help the victims. And our shift was about not about arresting the girls, not about our numbers, not about arresting the johns, about Rusty, the pimps. It was about how do we help the victims. That was our focus.
::Speaker 2
And that was a group focus from our leaders. And everything.
::Speaker 1
Was in that way when you came in, though, Because.
::Speaker 2
That's. No, no, because.
::Speaker 1
That's that's, you.
::Speaker 2
Know.
::Speaker 1
Really massive.
::Speaker 2
There was a few new people that all came in at the same time. And we just in the next a couple of cases hit that just it just I don't know we just had a good new group, a new fresh group that just clicked and it just happened. And and then after that, we were very sensitive and very careful about who we let in, you know, for hiring.
::Speaker 2
Like when if someone left, if someone were tired, you know, if we weren't getting if we got bodies, if we got like the approved to get new positions, we were very selective of who we let come in because they had to have that same mindset or they weren't. They weren't a good fit. And that was a big important thing to keep it going.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, and I think that's why we've been so successful here in Phenix.
::Speaker 1
And there was I mean, we could we could spend a long time talking about all the different little things that you, your team would do that displays the truth of what you're saying, where it was really not just about arresting them or arresting them or arresting them or trying to get them off the street. But it was about supporting the victims of this.
::Speaker 1
One of the little things that we would do early on is you all would tell us when there was a survivor slash victim who was actually in court testifying against her pimp, which was very, very hard for them to do. And one of the little simple things we would do then is just get a group to come down there and support them.
::Speaker 1
So they knew I don't know who these faces are behind me, but there's a group on there for us supporting. And that was that was what your vice squad did. It was like, That's abnormal.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, just partnerships, just creating a lot of partnerships in the community because this is definitely a community issue. Yeah. And as a police department, we don't have the resources to that to be able to help the victims the way they need it. And we just didn't. And I don't think any police department does. I mean, we're a huge city and we didn't.
::Speaker 2
So I mean, like you said. So now there's groups. I mean, I had a trial a couple of years ago or I was part of a trial. It was a my trial court case agent. But that there's a groups now I can't remember the name of it. It's like a biker group that supports victims of trafficking. Are you familiar with this group?
::Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. I think I saw you at one of the one of the fundraisers, but they're fantastic because they it's all for a great cause, but they're very intimidating looking and they all show up for these victims and it's fantastic. I love it because I think it just empowers the girls. Yeah, you know, it empowers the victims to be like, Yeah, they're all here for me.
::Speaker 2
You know, I feel safer in this courtroom, you know, to testify. And it's awesome. I love it. Yeah. And so, yeah, having people there just to surround them is is huge. And and, you know, the the churches and, you know, we worked with churches that did, you know Bethany Bible does fundraisers all the free.
::Speaker 1
To laugh comedy thing.
::Speaker 2
Comedy shows so it was it was such a great our friend Brad Yeah really Brad's.
::Speaker 1
Brilliant.
::Speaker 2
Idea awesome And we partnered with ASU and with and with the city and with all the different resources. And we did this thing called Project Rose for many, many years where we would have all the resources in one building and the city of Phenix prosecutors would come in and have a table and then we would have like health services and we would have clothing and we had food and everything, and we would go out and we'd arrest the girls while they're working, but we would bring them in there, and instead of going to jail, they would get all of these services and then they would see the city attorney and basically kind of give them
::Speaker 2
like a pre diversion kind of thing. Like, hey, if you take us up on some help and some services in lieu of, you know, because we we knew these girls aren't, you know, nobody is I, I always say when I'm, you know, being interviewed or talking or talking to groups like when people are kids or people are young, you know, like I'm I'm going to be an architect when I grow up.
::Speaker 2
Nobody is like, I think I'm going to go out and prostitute when I grow up. That's just not what people that's it happens because of circumstances and and there's a reason and let's help Yeah get him out.
::Speaker 1
The time that I work with you, I took a lot of things from you during that time, but that was one of them. That's one of the ways I explain to people because. Because when they go meet some of these girls, if they get an opportunity to and they meet some of these girls, they don't talk or act like victims, like it confuses people.
::Speaker 1
They're like, wait, wait, wait. I was thinking that these girls were all going to be like running for help and open arms. And so it's a little messy for them. Right? Understand. But what helps them is to go, listen, No. Six year old girl sat on the edge of her bed or, as you say, a little boy sometimes who sat on the edge of the bed and said, you know what I want to have when I'm 18?
::Speaker 1
I want to be selling my body right. It's customer after customer night after night, right?
::Speaker 2
No one what the what people are seeing is their defense mechanism. It's what that's what people are seeing is their hard shell of, I want to do it. I'm doing it. You know, I love them. It's my choice. You know, they do that. That's that's them trying to convince themselves because like we said at the beginning, they don't see themselves as a victim.
::Speaker 2
People don't want to in general, people don't want to say, I'm a victim like that. Nobody wants to say that they're a victim of something. And so that is their own self-preservation. You know, they're not there yet. They haven't gotten to the point where they see themselves as the victim. And so, of course, they don't see themselves as a victim then they're not going to project that out to people.
::Speaker 2
And that's what we had to understand to just ignore that because that we knew that that was not real and get past that.
::Speaker 1
But Christy, that's what made your team so amazing that you were part of because you were you were upholding the law. That's part of.
::Speaker 2
Your job, right?
::Speaker 1
As a police officer, they were doing illegal things.
::Speaker 2
We would get.
::Speaker 1
Them upholding the law. You'd get them off the street. But that but that's not where you start. And that's where a lot of times the story ends. It was. But with your team it goes. But there's something bigger, deeper, more sinister and dark that's happening. Right. And we can't ignore that. And you all didn't ignore that. And that's where this multisector collaboration came from.
::Speaker 1
And it was kind of.
::Speaker 2
The why behind Why are you there? Yeah, that's the that's the reason I Yeah.
::Speaker 1
Well that's why this fits so well with this podcast. So we we talk about no gray areas and as you know, it's tied to this movie that's being made and some guys that years ago made a mistake and it's a cautionary tale. You know, our choices follow us. And so they both are felons now. They lost careers over this.
::Speaker 1
But there's also this redemptive side of the story where it wasn't the end of their story. They did their prison time. They did their. And that's not the end of their life. Here they are 20 some years later. They're both writing books now. They both speak to youth and are trying to youth to help you to understand this.
::Speaker 1
But from what you dealt with, I think it's great for our listeners to unpack a little bit where it's sometimes easy for us to go, Well, it's your choice. You know, you you choose whether you're going to do this or not going to do this. That's true. But there's a little it's a little more nuanced. So sometimes people will look at one of these girls and go, well, they made the choice at 16 or 15 to write speak into that a little bit where that's not completely true.
::Speaker 2
That's a whole lot to unpack. But yes. Okay. So yes, and a lot of 15 and 16 year olds choose to have sex with a boyfriend or girlfriend the first time because they think they love them and get pregnant. Or a lot of 15, 16 year olds make choices to do drugs or drink alcohol or I mean, we all make choices that maybe we wish we wouldn't have or we thought we were making a good choice or depending on what happened before that in our youth, we may know better or not know better or were rebelling against our parents or our family.
::Speaker 2
There's there's a lot of reasons why we make our choices. Yeah, and again, I go back to the that could have been me saying, you know, I, I think part of the reason I was chasing boys around is I didn't have a great relationship with my dad growing up. And I think at that age I was all, you know, and I'm I'm a I'm the oldest child.
::Speaker 2
I'm a very independent person. And I was all about charging the way and showing everybody I could take care of business and do you know? And so at 15, I thought I knew everything. And I'm pretty sure every listener knows that has a teenage kid that knows that they're 15 or 16 year old, thinks that they know everything and has nothing to listen to about their parents.
::Speaker 2
That's pretty typical. So teenagers do make bad decisions and they are their choices to a degree. But if you've got someone manipulating you and feeding you information and putting ideas in your head, those choices become a little less your choices. Like I it's full on if I just decide I'm going to go and get a fake ID and go buy alcohol and drink it, that might fully be my choice.
::Speaker 2
Or it could be peer pressure from my friends. But if I've got someone in my ear when I don't have maybe a good relationship at home telling me where I live so poorly that I have no money and I've got someone in my ear telling me, Come stay with me. I can help you make some money. We can go buy a Gucci bag, which everybody sees in every video that needs, you know, like whatever, whatever.
::Speaker 2
What what they do is they start talking to people, whether you're a teenager or a young person, and they find out what your currency is, what what is important to you. And then they come in with that and say, I can offer you.
::Speaker 1
That master manipulator.
::Speaker 2
Master, master, manipulator. And so if it's things for money, which for a lot of young people it is if it's love, which for a lot of young people it is, they're going to come in with that tool and they're going to pull them away, and then they're going to use that to convince them that they have to do this.
::Speaker 2
And that's usually baby steps. It's usually it's not like, oh, you're just going to go prostitute. It's if you love me, Oh, I set up this date if you'll. But you just you don't have to have sex with them. You just if you love me, we, I need to pay my bills. I have a car payment. I need this.
::Speaker 2
You just have to dance for them. Just go on a date with them or you just have to dance for them. You just look pretty. You don't have to do anything. But as soon as they get them in the hotel room or you get them a loan, they know what's expected. They know what's going to happen. And then as soon as that happens, one time, that person that has been victimized and feels complete shame and feels horrible because they know they made the choice, you know, like we say, their choice.
::Speaker 2
They made it. They made them feel like it was their choice. And now they don't want to tell anybody.
::Speaker 1
That choice against, don't they?
::Speaker 2
And they're embarrassed and they're shameful. It's a very manipulative game. So, yes. Yeah. And they will probably continue to feel like it was their choice for a very, very long time. And a lot of times people don't go and tell family and friends and ask for help because they felt, well, I chose this. I got there on my own and I don't know how to get out.
::Speaker 1
And I think when you back up even more, I mean, I know this isn't probably across the board, but I never had one conversation with one girl that was rescued out of the situation that didn't go back to having abuse in our life, too. So that's where you even talk about more. So I don't know if it's I'm sure it's a very, very, very high percentage, if not 100%.
::Speaker 1
It's got to be close to it. Where you back up and there were things done to this little girl or this little boy where again you go, Well, they made a choice, right? They did. But there's a lot of manipulation and brainwashing and brokenness that move them toward that choice.
::Speaker 2
Whether it's mental abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and if they're coming from a home that has any of those things, that makes it even easier for them to pull them away. And because people want to, people don't so often go towards things. They're leaving something and they're, you know, so they don't necessarily know what they're going towards. They're just knowing that.
::Speaker 2
They're just trying to get away from where they're at. So, wow, it's it's a it's a extremely powerful, manipulative, emotional game that is takes a really long time to undo.
::Speaker 1
How long did you work with the vice squad? The almost.
::Speaker 2
15 years.
::Speaker 1
So 15 of your 21 was with the vice squad?
::Speaker 2
Yes. Well, I know.
::Speaker 1
And you got I know you wouldn't brag about this, but I'll break on you. Yeah. You got all kinds of awards from a federal level at the state level. City level? Yeah. What were some of those?
::Speaker 2
I don't even know. Honestly, I don't. I like. I have some plaques and some that I though this is going to sound cheesy, but I the awards, the only awards I ever cared about were the girls announcing I'm going to get emotional. That's okay. When sometimes be like five years later and girls would say, you saved my life, you know, Thank you.
::Speaker 2
That's all. Yeah. Honestly. And I'm paying attention. The rest of the staff. Sorry.
::Speaker 1
Which is. Which is powerful. Well, Chris, you apologize for your team. This is what made you such an amazing officer. And vice officer is again, you are upholding the law. But there was a compassion that you had that you saw. This girl that was breaking the law wasn't just a criminal. She was a victim and a survivor. And you treated her that way?
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And your team did that.
::Speaker 2
Well, be so funny because most of the time they really hated me. Yeah, It's for like, during the whole time, they. You know, they didn't like me, but then they turn around, you know, five years later and be like, I'm doing really good now, and thank you, you know, And.
::Speaker 1
That's why you're saying that it was five years sometimes, but generally, yeah, two weeks later.
::Speaker 2
No, no, it took some time. It takes time. It takes time. Yeah. But I know that's what kept me going because I knew that I was doing the right thing.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. Tell us if you can't. Obviously, you can't use a name, but tell us one of the stories. You know how to be descriptive, but tell us one of the stories that because I know it was heartbreaking to see how many would go back and how many times it would sometimes go back. But there there are some good stories to the stories out.
::Speaker 1
So maybe give us one.
::Speaker 2
Of those that my favorite stories are are definitely the ones that in general that end up being part of these survivor groups and then being mentors towards the other girls. There's a lot of those groups now which I think is extremely helpful and extremely powerful, but I have gotten to see young ladies, you know, almost always they relapse in some some way, whether it's prostitution or drugs or something.
::Speaker 2
It takes time and not almost always, but it really often, which.
::Speaker 1
Is true of a lot of actions. Right. It takes a couple of runs.
::Speaker 2
It's right. And they've and they've just been and it's heartbreaking for me because when they just start doing really well, I think it scares them because they don't know what to do then, because they've been so like and then they kind of go backwards, but eventually they get over that hump and and it's only with the help of all these these groups and these support groups and having that mentorship and but they do it, you know, and that and they you know, I've seen young ladies get their degrees and get nursing degrees and, you know, I mean, get out of prison and then go and get, you know, a degree and start a business.
::Speaker 2
And I've you know, I partnered with a girl for a while who I had arrested and put like 27 felonies on. She was a bottom, which I don't know. Most people know what that is. So, yeah, it's basically the the the right hand man of the pimp. Like it's the the the the female that helps the pimp the most and and oftentimes they will get charged with the same same charges as the pimp, especially if there's a juvenile involved in this particular case.
::Speaker 2
There was. And eventually we found, you know, she wouldn't talk to us. We were hoping a lot of times will arrest the bottom, knowing that they were good and well, a victim as well. But if they don't talk to us, if they're protecting the pimp, then we can't do anything to help them. But she wouldn't talk to us.
::Speaker 2
And so she had signed a plea and she was supposed to be in prison for like 15 years. And then we found out some stuff about why she wasn't talking to us, that the pimp had taken her child and and put it with his family in another state and in her. So she didn't know where her child was.
::Speaker 2
And so that's why she wasn't talking, because, you know, her child was. And eventually after, like they signed, please, they'd both been in jail for a while and they were, you know, waiting to go to prison. The child had gotten kind of funneled around to different people. And this this girl wrote her a letter and said, I've got your kid and I can't claim it.
::Speaker 2
You know, I can't get any money for it and I don't want it. Some of these come get this kid.
::Speaker 1
And that's when she found out where a kid was, and.
::Speaker 2
That's how she found out where her kid was. And so then as soon as her family, she sent her family to go get this kid in California and bring back and as soon as she knew she had her kid back then she went to her attorney and said, okay, I'll talk now. But I mean, she was literally had signed her plea and was getting ready to go to prison.
::Speaker 2
And so the judge allowed me to go talk to her to find out what was going on. I mean, I didn't know any of this. And I heard the whole story. And so I went back to the attorney and I'm like, we got to see if they'll get her out of this plea. Like, this is horrible. All the things that happen.
::Speaker 1
I'm just curious is that the attorney that we both knew.
::Speaker 2
Oh, which one? I don't even know some of the attorneys. Okay.
::Speaker 1
Well, there was the one. She was female attorney that worked for Phenix, and she was another one that was such an advocate for their survivors. But yeah.
::Speaker 2
I mean, I don't know. I'm not really sure. I don't know because we've had some really good attorneys. All all of our attorneys become judges. They all leave me. So we got her plea revoked and the judge was amazing. Basically said, if you go into one of these programs for a year and you successfully complete the program will wipe everything instead of having all these felony charges.
::Speaker 2
And so she did and she struggled. It was a hard year for her and especially her kid was from her pimp. He had raped her. And and so as the kid was getting older, he looked like the pimp and every time. So she was really struggling with that and just trying to, you know, get through everything. And the I'll tell you what, these mentor groups and support groups, I don't know what we would do without them.
::Speaker 2
And And so eventually she her and I formed a partnership and we went around, spoke together and educated law enforcement and social work groups and things like that. And since then she has gone off and moved out of state and started her own designer business. And she's ridiculously successful. She wrote a book and she is doing fantastically and, and and, you know, got her kids all together and and and you know, that I love to see I think what I see most is that once they get over that hump, you know, and it's hard.
::Speaker 2
It's hard. But once they get over that hump, the the girls that I see become successful are just powerhouses. Yeah, super successful because they they are so they've been through so much and they're so smart and they're street smart and they're strong and they can just do anything than I'll tell you, it's impressive.
::Speaker 1
I remember talking to one of the survivors that we mutually know, and she was talking about her lack of education, lack of. And I said, you have an amazing education, the street education that you got through hard times, the good times. Right. It was an amazing education. And it's more so than lot of people got.
::Speaker 2
Right.
::Speaker 1
But what Christy, what an amazing story because again, if you could drop in in a few places when you first met this. So she's a bottom girl. She's going to face all these felonies. She's not talking. So someone from the outside or in a lot of.
::Speaker 2
Places can go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
::Speaker 1
Done. Put her away. Throw away the key.
::Speaker 2
Right.
::Speaker 1
And they a lot of times with no idea what she went through. No idea the abuse that she I mean, you learned some of the things that she went through and you shared some of that, I mean raped by her pimp and she got a kid from a pimp. Now they basically kidnaped her kid and has happened all these things that no one would know on the outside.
::Speaker 1
You would just look at this woman and go, you know, criminal, right? Lock her up, throw away the key. Look what she did to these other girls. But then even once she starts down that road to become a new person, it's not. It wasn't always easy.
::Speaker 2
Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. She struggled a lot. Yeah. And even just trying to get a job because even though her record technically got wiped as far as, I mean, she finished the program, so they didn't. She'd have all these felonies. I mean, her plea was basically, we'll drop the felonies, but if you Google her name, yeah, she got arrested for 20 some felonies of human trafficking and trafficking of a child and blah, blah, blah.
::Speaker 2
So when she would go to get a job and they would try to do a background check on her, they didn't care that the charges got dropped. They just saw that. Yeah. And I had to she would reach out to me and I would advocate for her so she could start getting like real jobs, you know, just to like, help verify that, like give this girl a chance kind of thing, you know?
::Speaker 2
And I, I did that a lot. I know. I went to apartment complexes and when.
::Speaker 1
Girls rotated so they could.
::Speaker 2
Get a so they could get an apartment because they had a felony on their record. And they're like, no, we're not going to give them this.
::Speaker 1
That was incredible. You might have been the one that arrested them, right? Oh.
::Speaker 2
No. But if they had a felony, you know, I'd be like I'd go and I'd like advocate for them. Like, look, this is why they have a felony. They this is what they're doing. Can you just give them a chance? You know, And they some places would, you know, and I appreciate those people that would give them a chance.
::Speaker 1
Well, in that, Christi, that's again, this is why we wanted to have you on here, because, again, we talk about the power of choice that we as humans have. And you worked with a population that I think it's so important for us to understand. It's not just our population. There's a lot of there's some listeners who went through some stuff that maybe they've never shared with anybody else.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, they've been victimized in a way, and they're still wrestling with some of that stuff. They're still trying to work through some of that stuff. And sometimes they just need to have grace for ourselves. Some of our listeners just we have gracious selves and and then I think we just have to be a little more careful when we look at people to not just immediately.
::Speaker 1
So judgment. Yeah, look. Look what they did. Mm hmm. Go, man back up. I mean, I. When I moved to Chicago to go to school and I was working in a in a housing project, and and these kids, you know, I come from rural Montana. I had a kind of a what you might call a middle class upbringing where I learned, you know, hard work ethic, a lot of the blue collar type.
::Speaker 1
Right? And then I moved and I thought to myself when I was working with these little kids growing up in a housing project, I'm like, I wonder how I would it turned out, but I don't know that I would have. And again, I'm not I'm not excusing because this is the but we do have to come to the point in our lives where we go.
::Speaker 2
To take responsibility.
::Speaker 1
Not simply to take responsibility, but it's not as simple as we sometimes make it. Right, right, right. And you, the population you work with so long, that's that's part of the story.
::Speaker 2
Well, and that was a delicate balance for me, because I was all about helping people. But on the flip side of that, I, I had numerous conversations with young people, young lady, young ladies, majority, and said, I am not going to help you more than you're helping yourself. Mm hmm. Because oftentimes I would be doing a lot of things, and then they would just not follow through ever and not follow up or, you know, expect me to every time they needed something that was they were calling me.
::Speaker 2
And then I was like, no, you have you have to help yourself as well. Like this isn't this is not a one way street, you know. And so you do have there's I also grew up in the Midwest and have a, you know, like personal responsibility. And there's a difference between personal responsibility and judgment. Like, you know, like how so?
::Speaker 2
Well, I think you can I think people need to have personal responsibility and you should hold people to that. Yep. I think you can hold people to personal responsibility without being judgmental of them.
::Speaker 1
That's good.
::Speaker 2
I think that there's you're right. I think there 100% you can do that. Yeah. And our country in general, I think, knows how to do that very well. But I think we need to do that. Like we need to hold people responsible for their choices and make and you need to be. That's how you learn and you make better choices, but you don't have to condemn and judge people for it.
::Speaker 2
Just move on. Like, you know, like, okay, you did something wrong. You pay your pay your price and that's part of being the law and the legal you know, that's my kind of I'm all about like arrest you and pay your fine and then move on. I'm not going to forever hate you because you stole some candy and you had to pay off whatever you whatever the you know, whatever it is, it's just I'm not I am a believer.
::Speaker 2
And you you pay the price for what you do. But I'm not a believer in hold you responsible for your whole life. And now you're a horrible person because of it. You can't change your life and move on because. We've all I've made plenty of choices in my life that I'm not proud of and wish I wouldn't have.
::Speaker 2
You know it. But you learn from them and move on. That's how you learn and I, I tell my kids all the time and I tell parents what I'm speaking to parents and just people that work with young people in general. I think because people say, what can we do? You know? And I think the biggest thing is for because because there's so much manipulation and people feel like, you know, it's a lot of times it is a choice.
::Speaker 2
So if you want to call it that a choice like they or they've been, they believe it's their choice that they got into that no matter what, that they can always get out there. You have to have that door open. Mm hmm. And because the shame and embarrassment of the bad choice is what keeps people in, and it keeps them in longer.
::Speaker 1
Okay. Okay. Hold on.
::Speaker 2
Mm hmm.
::Speaker 1
That was so good. The shame and embarrassment of their choice keeps a because, again, we just moved away from just talking about human trafficking, too. I think all human beings.
::Speaker 2
Exactly right. It keeps you down that bad path. Yeah. At any point, you can change that path. You can just say, Oops. Was let's back up and start over, you know? And I think that is the biggest thing that I, I really, you know, like, we try to really stress with with the kids and with young people is like, if you okay, you're going to make bad choices.
::Speaker 2
It's okay. I don't want you to, but you're going to call us up. We'll give you a ride. You know, call us up. We'll help you as long as you don't. Then continue to keep making bad choices like the. The point is to try to learn from it and change direction and and move on and move in a different direction.
::Speaker 1
Even you walking with this this particular population, you weren't able to help, you know, because some of them weren't willing to do what they needed to do. Right. But again, I just, you know, to wrap things up, Christi, again, I just you're one of my heroes. And I say that because it's amazing how you worked in an environment where your job was justice and to call people for what was right and wrong based on the law.
::Speaker 1
But then you were an advocate. I mean, if there was any word that should go next to your name, you know, we're all we're all going to be put in the ground someday. Right. I hope on your tombstone someday. And I hope that's a long time from now. But I hope it says Christy the Advocate.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yes. The pimps that they probably and say the same thing. But. Well, that's okay with me.
::Speaker 1
It's okay with me to.
::Speaker 2
Talk to you.
::Speaker 1
With me, too. One quick story as we wrap up. So I don't know if you remember I was talking earlier about when you would call up and have a tell us, hey, come down to the courtroom and advocate for so you and I won't use the names because I don't know if you saw it even for the pimp's name, but there was a pimp that you said he's on trial and we need some people to come and just support the victim.
::Speaker 1
And I was like, Man, you gave me the name of the pimp. And I'm like, his street name. And where I hear that, where they hear that. And it was actually a picture that was part of the documentary.
::Speaker 2
Oh, because I know which one it is.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, that you do. Can we use the name? Sure. Okay. Mac Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. The girl had the tattoo on the back of that property of Cayman.
::Speaker 2
Mm.
::Speaker 1
Which is basically a reminder to her that she wasn't her own, but she was owned by that. But. But when we were making the documentary, that picture was one of the pictures that we were using. And then I don't remember.
::Speaker 2
And then. And then you were in his jail. Yeah. Watching him get put away. Yeah. That case, we he had so many victims and all over the country that we split, he, I had actually had a state case and a federal case with him because we had victims in so many different realms because he was just so all over the place.
::Speaker 2
He's still in prison.
::Speaker 1
So let me just I kept saying, we're going to wrap up this picture. How do you how did you take care of yourself in that time? Because I, I.
::Speaker 2
I crashed hard. Yeah.
::Speaker 1
Because I was hearing these stories day every day. And you did, too.
::Speaker 2
You know, I. I probably don't take care of myself as good as I should have. I went through some ups and downs. Eventually, I, you know, I wish I wanted to stay there even longer, but eventually I was like, okay, I need to go do something different for the last. So the last few years, my career, I went and did something different.
::Speaker 2
But I'm which is why I've been out for a bit. But, you know, I think I have a lot of really good friends and a lot of, you know, I did a lot of things outside of the police department and I tried to maintain a good life that didn't have to didn't identify me as a police officer. You know, and try to have that balance, trying to try to keep balanced.
::Speaker 2
And, you know, I like music and, you know, do things that were not not policing.
::Speaker 1
So you had hobbies?
::Speaker 2
Yeah.
::Speaker 1
People, individuals, Right. In your life that wasn't connected to this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
::Speaker 2
I think that's helpful. Yeah. Good.
::Speaker 1
Well, Christy, thank you so much again. You're one of my heroes. I'm so glad you. We worked for about a year to get you on here.
::Speaker 2
I know. I'm busy. Well, that's what happened. When you retire, then you apparently, I'm not available. Well, but now I love it.
::Speaker 1
I thank you so, so much. Thank you for, you know, how you spent your life as an advocate and you continue to just have compassion. People love people. So I love that about you. But we do this thing on on no gray areas, which is kind of funny because it's ironic. No gray areas. But I'm going to ask you to life.
::Speaker 1
So true truths and a lie.
::Speaker 2
Okay. One, I, I once hiked the Swiss Alps. Okay. I'm intending over 100 miles. Wow. Um, I have never had a speeding ticket in my life, and I once tried out for the game show Deal or no deal.
::Speaker 1
See, I know you're a good liar because I watched you work undercover. So you were. You are lying on the streets, right? You were? Yes.
::Speaker 2
So I had a hard time dating. Because of that, people would be like, I think you're just a liar. Yeah, like, not a very nice part.
::Speaker 1
Of what you did for your job, right? You had convinced. Yeah. So. Okay, man, I'm going to say. I'm going to say the Swiss Swiss Alps is true.
::Speaker 2
Yep. I did that last August. Okay? It was amazing.
::Speaker 1
Okay, now, for a: ::Speaker 2
It was? Yes. Yes.
::Speaker 1
Okay. So what, was there.
::Speaker 2
A speeding ticket? Speeding? Yes. Now, I had plenty of speeding tickets as a teenager. I almost lost my license.
::Speaker 1
Well, I saw you driving there.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, I had lots of students. So, you know, the good thing is when you get older and you become police officer and you have a badge, it's a little easier. You got a speeding tickets?
::Speaker 1
Yeah, Yeah, because.
::Speaker 2
Professional respect just called that. Good. Well, Chris, the courtesy.
::Speaker 1
Thank you again. Appreciate it so much.
::Speaker 2
Well, good guest. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really, really appreciate it. This is awesome. Good. Thank you. Thanks.
::Speaker 1
Thanks so much for joining us on today's No Gray Areas podcast. Kristy did an amazing job and you, like me, were probably profoundly impacted with her speaking about the nuances of choices that the truth is, is that all of us as human beings have been victimized before. And so where is it in your life where you truly were victimized by someone or something or someone else's poor choice?
::Speaker 1
But how can you move from being a victim to a survivor like us? Follow us. Subscribe to no gray areas. We'll see you next time.
