The Power of Choices | Ep. 43 with Chris Brown
We've all been given the power of choice. The question is, why does God allow “choice” even when he wants us to choose love? Why would he allow us the freedom to make poor decisions and cause bad things to happen?
Chris Brown breaks down these answers by explaining the Theology of Choice. By sharing some of his past mistakes, we are able to realize that our past failures do not define us…there is freedom, forgiveness, and grace when we choose love and truth.
The NO GREY AREAS platform is about the power, importance, and complexity of choices. We host motivating and informative interviews with captivating guests from all walks of life about learning and growing through our good and bad choices.
To learn more about the story behind No Grey Areas, check out the link below! https://www.nogreyareas.com
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Transcript
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Gray Areas podcast. Today we have special guest, Chris Brown. I promise you you're not going to want to miss this. He talks about the power of choices and the freedom and the hope that we have in the midst of our failures, in the midst of our poor choices. So join us now. Chris Brown. Chris Brown, welcome to the No.
::Speaker 1
Great.
::Speaker 2
Two one. Chris Brown This is going to be a bad day, but he's great. I love it. I told you when you called me.
::Speaker 1
Hey, thanks for dressing up for us though.
::Speaker 2
This is bad. I appreciate it. This is my three piece because my shoes actually match the t shirt. So this is for Southern California. This is you know.
::Speaker 1
Most people are listening. They don't get they didn't see that. I was actually impressed with how how you got your foot.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. Again, no, because I pulled something and right now I got excruciating pain going on that part of my thigh. All right, my band is ruined.
::Speaker 1
Yep. Yeah. Would you use your IT band a lot now?
::Speaker 2
Yeah, I have a guys, a bunch of it, so I don't even do anything with the band or bandWith.
::Speaker 1
I got it. Well, Chris.
::Speaker 2
That's it. Turn over. It is ready to go. We're going with.
::Speaker 1
All of this. We're going with all this. It is. It's super good having you on this. So I told you a little bit about it. The No Gray Areas podcast is built around. We're making a movie. It's a cautionary tale, redemptive story, biggest sports scandal that they know of in history, school thing.
::Speaker 2
So even when.
::Speaker 3
You told me about that months ago, I went online and started looking at the sports scandal. I remembered, oh yeah, I remember. They said they had some problems. And I went back and looked at and said, Oh.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, I can't wait.
::Speaker 3
To watch a movie on this.
::Speaker 1
One. Oh, the script has done so well. It's so well done. It's, it's it's a fascinating story.
::Speaker 3
I've been watching emails just wondering, like, what part I'm playing in the movie. I maybe have gotten two roles yet, but it's going to be exciting to see what part I get to be like.
::Speaker 1
Well, I was kind of waiting till we get you on the podcast. I was going to I mean, we're looking at you for the main character.
::Speaker 2
I figure when people look at me, they think athlete basketball.
::Speaker 1
Well, not not the basketball main character, the guy that masterminded it, the brains behind it.
::Speaker 2
Oh, the evil genius.
::Speaker 1
Only problem we have is he's 24 at the time. Yeah. And you're how old now?
::Speaker 3
Why don't we start the movie as an old guy? Kind of. Sort of like in prison, looking back and I'll be the old guy in prison.
::Speaker 1
Could be it done. You could be. I like it.
::Speaker 3
Podcast saved.
::Speaker 1
So I had actually about a year ago, I had one of the best compliments that I've ever gotten. I had preached at Rock Point Church in Phenix area.
::Speaker 3
Ooh, Bush, I know that. Well, what's his name? I'm Bill Bush. Bill Bush? Yeah, great.
::Speaker 1
Church came out to the coffee shop out there and I was in the lobby and some young lady behind the counter said, You remind me of one of my favorite pastors. I grew up in the church out in California and I'm like, Oh, please say Chris Brown. And she said, Chris Brown, no way.
::Speaker 2
So just muscular build. That's what she say. Arms t shirt. Yeah she goes. The message was a good one. Terrible. The only physic I've seen like that on a pastor Chris Brown.
::Speaker 1
It was totally it.
::Speaker 2
Seriously, someone said that outside of a church because.
::Speaker 1
I told a big story that day.
::Speaker 2
Which is which was probably not narrative speak yet. She's like the only other pastor I know that lies a lot.
::Speaker 1
,: ::Speaker 1
So you coming from a faith based perspective and you're a deep, deep sea theological.
::Speaker 2
C, you can't even say that with a straight face and put there. Chris Brown Deep, deep. You just crack up. We try and you're trying I was.
::Speaker 1
Trying to say with straight faced but you are you joke about not being that way. I mean you're you you you are a narrative storyteller. Oh you make the Bible come alive or whatever you're speaking about.
::Speaker 2
Your Bible is I've, I just allow people to.
::Speaker 3
See it for what.
::Speaker 1
It is. Yeah, it is. People feel like they're in the story, but I don't think it's something that we talk about very often, the theology of choice, you know, and that's that makes this kind of a Christian podcast right now, because I use the word theology.
::Speaker 3
All right. I'll clean it, right?
::Speaker 1
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Theology, system of beliefs.
::Speaker 3
I mean, the pastor's own.
::Speaker 1
Well, but what do you what do you think about that? Like, I don't think we talked much about it. Yeah. We don't think choices one of the most beautiful things that we've been given. But it's also what gets us in a lot of mess is what differentiates us from the animal kingdom, right?
::Speaker 3
Oh, yeah.
::Speaker 1
So speaking of that.
::Speaker 2
To steal a line from the old.
::Speaker 3
Book of heart, it used to remind me it's sort of like a scalpel. Scalpel is neither good nor bad. It's whoever's hand. A sharp blade is good nor bad. Whatever hand it's in, I think choices that way because you said it's one the most beautiful things we have. But some people would say it's the most dangerous. I mean, why in the world God allow choice free will?
::Speaker 3
I mean, it's it's asinine. And you're right, I don't think we talk about it a whole lot. I think for me, I would go back to it's page three in the Bible, page one in to set up that there is a creator behind creation, there is an unmade maker, there is a designer behind the intricate designs of this earth and all that we know.
::Speaker 3
So there's a purpose to it, page one. And to page three, what uniquely separates woman and man from the animal kingdom is we've been given choice. Yeah, and it's funny. It's a beautiful thing. But also on page three, Genesis, chapter three of the Bible, you see it can be an incredible, devastating thing. Yeah, because you have the ability to choose positive or negative, right and wrong.
::Speaker 3
Yeah.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And they chose wrong and we still see. Yeah, we were still. Yeah.
::Speaker 2
You and I are the knuckleheads we are today. Thanks, Adam. Thanks even. Thank you. But yeah.
::Speaker 1
But there's the reverse side to that though to right.
::Speaker 3
100%. And people always ask, you know, especially like you been in that I was a youth pastor for many, many years and decades and loved with student ministries. Now, you know, I'm still a youth pastor. I just got a bunch of gray haired people in my youth group. Yeah, but people always ask, why did.
::Speaker 1
You when you matured and grew up, you had to.
::Speaker 2
Kind of know that I'm the deep, deep theologian that you claim.
::Speaker 3
But people still ask why we got to allow choice. Why would God allow evil? Or why does God allowed hurt, harm? And to realize the answer to that question is because God had it allowed choice. So the whole narrative of creation, God said, Let us make man and woman in our image, the plurality, the three in one, the triune God says, Look, here's what's going to separate humans from the rest of the animal world.
::Speaker 3
You're going to have choice. And that's what makes us in the image of God. Why did God allow it? Because God's His overall attribute character is love. Love is a choice. If you don't have choice, you can't allow love in the world. And so when you say, why is there evil? Why is the wrong? Because as you said, it can go there.
::Speaker 3
The choice to own love is evil. The choice to unloved is to hurt. The choice to unloved is not to protect. The choice to unloved is to abandoned, to reject, to abuse. So God had to allow evil if he was going to allow love, because love is a choice. Now, unfortunately, many of your listeners and we all know people who have been caught in the backwash of someone's choice, too, on love.
::Speaker 3
Yeah, but God gave it there for there to be love. Yeah. If there's no evil, if there's no wrong there can also be no love. Yeah, because love is a choice.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, well, and when we look around our world, we see plenty of examples of the young love right in the news. And I think, you know, I remember going to the Rwandan Genocide Museum in Rwanda and reading something after the genocide in Germany in the forties. You know, the famous phrase Never again. Yeah. And in fact, there was a genocide somewhere in the world every decade since then.
::Speaker 1
So we definitely see the unloving part of choice. Yeah, I think we miss sometimes though. We see the loving side of choice that humans make. Even humans who don't even believe in God, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, right now in the news, we're seeing all this stuff about the shootings that are taking place around the country.
::Speaker 1
Every time that happens, there's literally hundreds of people there willing to lay down their lives, lining up to give blood shielding innocent victims. So we see both in our world, don't.
::Speaker 3
We, those that go into the line of fire, those who put themselves between us in harm's way, it is cause it's the same side of the coin. What allows evil, what allows heartbreak, heartache, genocide, or each of us? Our deepest scars that we carry in life is where someone unloved us. But it's the same side. The other side of the coin is the other side of choices.
::Speaker 3
But look at what love has brought. Look, if you're 27 years I've been married to the most gorgeous, godly Jewish woman, dark skinned, perpetually tan, long, dark hair.
::Speaker 1
Okay, okay. Let's go on.
::Speaker 2
You like God.
::Speaker 3
Loves Jews, man. I got to marry one. So, like, half my kids are chosen. Half my kids are pretty good. But for 27 years, that woman and.
::Speaker 2
Despite of who I am and what I've given has.
::Speaker 3
Chosen to love and I get to reap the benefit every night. I get to go home now, man, that was a choice to love and I chose to love her. The opposite side of that is divorce, heartbreak, rape. You know, rejection, betrayal. And it's like, why does God allow because God wanted us, begs us make the choice on the love side.
::Speaker 3
And God should have said no, no choice. But then there's no love. Yeah, we're robots. We're an animal kingdom. We procreate. We either we eat our spouse or we eat our young, or we mate for life. That's not a choice different animals have. That's what their species do. You are just migrating instinct according to the sun in the seasons.
::Speaker 3
And God said No, you and you alone will be set apart in creation. And what He did is gave a tree and choice. And page three says That's what humans have that no other living creature has. It's what makes us in the image of God because God wants us to experience all that is love, all that is right.
::Speaker 3
All that is beauty of it is comfort, all that is security. And for us to have that, every one of those are choice, choice, choice, choice, choice, which the other side of the coin is a dark one. Many of us have been caught up with people that chose wrong.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And I like what you said. Where some of the deepest scars we carry as human beings are because someone made a poor choice and unloved us in some way or so.
::Speaker 3
But the.
::Speaker 2
Scars.
::Speaker 3
Also are where I've hurt people. Yeah, most of the time, unintentionally. But I'm like, Man, I hurt those people. Yeah. Yeah. My biggest regrets are when I have chosen to take an option that I'm like, Man, that came off incredibly unloving. Or I just did on love. Yeah.
::Speaker 1
Well, so, so. Okay, that's that's a great lead. Weigh in on this. Let's go back. I know that was a great that's why you're a communicator.
::Speaker 2
That's it.
::Speaker 1
Transition going you transition smoothly into that. So you're from Texas originally, right? Oh yeah. What part of Texas?
::Speaker 2
Oh.
::Speaker 3
Eat forest. Far west.
::Speaker 2
I always tell people I come. I lived in the two armpits. Are the two bung holes of Texas. No, I told you.
::Speaker 1
If you use hole on this that I would buy you dinner.
::Speaker 2
So I will get to do anything for dinner.
::Speaker 3
In between Houston and the Louisiana border in the swampy, humid, crawdads serpent infested marshes is a place called Beaumont, Texas. We lived outside of Beaumont. It's like maybe an hour drive from Louisiana, maybe less than that. So my elementary years were over in Beaumont, and then all my teenage years.
::Speaker 1
Did you say things, mom and Dad?
::Speaker 3
Yeah, well, as a kid, I loved it. You know, I'm hunting turtles, snakes, crawdads. Most of the things can kill you, but that's why you carry a long stick. So as a kid, man, I grew.
::Speaker 2
Up growing up. Yeah, I had aquariums.
::Speaker 3
I had boxes. I was always keeping something in the backyard. And then all my teenage years, far, far west El Paso. And that's right on New Mexico or Mexico, in fact, there's a lot of people from West Texas. But when you talk to them, they're from the Panhandle. And I'm like, you got to drive another 6 hours to get to west.
::Speaker 2
Texas is a big state.
::Speaker 3
And Texas doesn't even claim El Paso. That little tip on the Texas is like, look, you can be New Mexico or Mexico. We don't care about yourself.
::Speaker 2
Texas. Yeah, but that's where I grew up due to armpit. It's funny that.
::Speaker 1
You say that because I thought for a long time that El Paso was in New Mexico, and that's because Texas keeps trying to push it.
::Speaker 2
It is there's like it's out there just a little tip off and they just go.
::Speaker 3
But it's right on the border of Mexico. New Mexico. And you've got to drive hours across west Texas to find Texas. Yes, that's where I grew up.
::Speaker 1
So how in the world did you end up as a pastor? Because it was you've I've heard you tell your story a little bit, kind of the last place you thought you would be or how you would end up right when you were.
::Speaker 2
When God got a hold.
::Speaker 3
Of my life. If someone would have pulled me aside and said, by the way, you're eventually going to be a pastor, I would have jumped out the window and ran.
::Speaker 1
The same thing. Most of your teachers would have thought, Yeah.
::Speaker 3
I hated church and I hated pastors. Both of those for very good reason. That hatred was earned in my life. We grew up and again, I always try to say, Hey, Mom and Dad, thank you. They were trying their best, but Mom and Dad both came from broken first marriages. My mom came with two kids. My dad meets my mom.
::Speaker 3
They come together. I'm not embarrassed to say it, but God rest my parents in Texas. They may be embarrassed if they hear this, but mom has to tell my dad she's pregnant. And my dad's like, Oh, we should probably get married. Mom and dad. Then now they got two kids, one on the way. They get married and they realize we will not let our families go down the route both of our first marriages.
::Speaker 3
So to their credit, they thought, how can we protect a young family? Let's find the most conservative thing in America. Our church left Southern Baptist because they thought Southern Baptists were.
::Speaker 2
Way too liberal. So they found a branch that now I look back, call.
::Speaker 3
It cultic Christianity, where guys and girls cannot swim in the same swimming pool. You can't go in a house that had a billiard table. You can't watch cartoons because animation is from the devil, the Smurfs. Oh, my gosh, the.
::Speaker 2
Skulls.
::Speaker 3
Of mammals.
::Speaker 1
And I mean, they were mixing potions.
::Speaker 2
So I said, witchcraft, the little blue creatures on your mushroom.
::Speaker 3
Scary anyway, but anyway. And you couldn't play anything with a deck of cards like either goldfish or nothing. They had a deck of cards associated with it. And again, my parents were just trying to go, How do we save a flower? But in doing that, they threw out love, freedom, grace and mercy for conservative cultic dogma at Christianity, where I was taught hypocrisy my whole life because no one can live up to that.
::Speaker 3
And so really I hated church, I hated the pastors. I was abused in a Christian school by one of the pastors on that when I was a young guy. So I just knew the whole thing was a sham. And it was into my into my twenties. My older brother had come back to knowing who God was in his life personally, and he kept an eye on me.
::Speaker 3
I got to Southern California just because I left El Paso wanted someplace where there was water. And I'm a fisherman. Loved it out here. And after a while, my brother just broke into my life and just said, Hey, how you doing? And I go, Man, I'm doing good. And he said, No, you're not. And I swung around. I'm in his garage.
::Speaker 3
I swung around to say something funny and snappy, and when I saw his eyes, I realized he wasn't just making a comment. He was telling me, You're not doing good. And I shrugged it off. I said, Well, I'm doing as good as I can. And he said, No, you're not. And he goes, Chris, I want to tell you two things.
::Speaker 3
Number one, God hated the church we grew up in. He goes, Look, it's not that he hated the people, but everything about that church, God hated what was done.
::Speaker 1
In his name. He needed to hear that. And for the.
::Speaker 3
First time in my life, I'm like, Well, I mean, Big G, we're on the same side because I hated that church, I hated the Christian school, I hated the abuse. But I thought, well, that was God's organization. It was all done in the name of God. And I didn't realize God hated it. And He goes, Secondly, you know that God loves you.
::Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, God loves the world. I happen to be in the world, therefore I'm a byproduct. You know, God's and I don't know if he had thought about it or the Spirit just gave it to him. But Mark goes, Yeah, but here's what you need to know. God knows everything you're doing. And he still really, really likes you.
::Speaker 3
Hmm. Pat At that moment, God liking me was far more profound and deeper than God loving me. I knew God loved me, but he hated me. He couldn't wait to do his hands on me. And my brother's like, No, he really, really likes you. Now, talking about choice, I had been making every wrong choice in my life for the last four years.
::Speaker 1
You weren't a likable guy. You would think in God's eyes.
::Speaker 2
You know, I was a real likable guy by the.
::Speaker 3
Crowd I ran with. Yeah. Where's Chris going Friday night? Who's Christian? Well, we want to go there, but I hated being alone at night because when I was alone, I didn't like who I was with. I didn't even like me. I knew God couldn't wait to get his hands on me. Which is ironic. Yeah. As if, you know, God was trying to find out where I was.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. If he wanted to scorch me, he could have had me.
::Speaker 3
Yeah, but my brother.
::Speaker 1
Your brother telling you that he liked you far more like that was more profound than him saying God loves you.
::Speaker 3
Wait, why?
::Speaker 2
God loves that? Why do you think that for God's love, the world He gave is only because I had to do it?
::Speaker 3
Well, I'm in the world. God loves the world. God didn't love me. He God loves the world and I'm part of people. God loves people, not people. God knows everything you've been doing and he really, really likes you rocked me. I didn't even like me. Hmm. And that started a journey. Now, at that moment of someone said, by the way, you're going to end up in church working at one.
::Speaker 3
That's where I would have jumped out the window and ran down. And my brother even said, You can come back to knowing who this guy is without having to be part of a church. Now, that.
::Speaker 2
Part may have been a little bit of a.
::Speaker 3
Lie, but my brother knew I wasn't about to do church, but I needed this God. And that's what started my my life back. How old were you? I was 22, really? When this happened. I'm driving heavy equipment. I'm driving bulldozers, graders. I'm doing firebreaks for the county. I'm just pushing trees over. I'm having the time of my life and I start hanging out this Bible study.
::Speaker 3
I start walking through this, and before I know it, the youth pastor loves my brother in the town we're in.
::Speaker 2
Thought I was a lot like.
::Speaker 3
Him, man was out of surprise to him, but he came to me and said, Hey, we're taking a bunch of kids to camp. We have a huge youth group and the adults are scared of it because they set a volunteer on fire last year at camp.
::Speaker 2
And I'm like, perfect place for you to sit here. I would I would love to see some high school dude set me on fire. This is going to be great. And so I went.
::Speaker 3
To winter camp with him and fell in love with working with these 16, 17 year old boys who just don't have dads. And I saw them going down the road. I was going down, and they just wanted someone they didn't want a 50 year old, the delta from what to do. They want a 22 year old dude had all the time and money to spend on him.
::Speaker 3
It was just.
::Speaker 1
Barely mature, more mature than them. I wasn't.
::Speaker 3
More mature than.
::Speaker 2
Them, but that's what I had more money than them and they were more mature to me. So it was a perfect combination. Yeah.
::Speaker 3
And that's what started it. And it was about a year of working with Jim Traill at Fallbrook, First Baptist. I can't believe it was a Baptist church, and that's what brought me back in. And I started walking alongside students and a year into it I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm supposed to be a youth pastor. I hate youth pastors, I hate church.
::Speaker 3
How do I get out of this? But at that moment, there was nothing else in the world I could do and be happy. And it's 31 years of kind of being in ministry. Working through stuff now has been crap, man.
::Speaker 1
That's crazy. That is crazy. So. So what are some of the choices that you made that you look back with regret on the.
::Speaker 3
Oh, okay. Honestly, I mean, besides this interview, there has been quite a few things that I'm like, why didn't I put that on my schedule? I'm just joking. Working. Gosh, okay. I mean, the list is so huge. Pat How I treated women, how I treated relationships. I had nothing to offer or give to a woman. I was a boy who just needed a take from femininity.
::Speaker 3
It's disgraceful how God liked me. That's why my brother's words that God like me knowing what I was doing unheard of. But I really needed someone to know who I was. And like me, even in ministry, the choices you make, I look back and the things I'd said or things I put together that, you know, hurt. Someone just broke my heart.
::Speaker 3
But the damage was already done. Using illustrations as a youth pastor, where it was pretty widely known who I was talking about. I'm like, Chris, what were you doing? Ministry putting giftedness ahead of character for a lot of start you putting together staff and I would see giftedness not character we've associated giftedness with spirituality in our culture today and nothing could be further from the truth and I would platform giftedness instead of character and man did I pay for that.
::Speaker 1
I got to be I got to be careful right now and not go down that road because I want to.
::Speaker 2
Mention a to mention names. I know.
::Speaker 1
I just want I want to I'm tempted to just take the rest of this podcast and unpack what you just said.
::Speaker 2
My nominators showed that, oh, my early leadership, I was looking at my.
::Speaker 3
Giftedness and I God was using me and I'm like, Oh, so I must be God's blessed me. And God's like, No, no, don't condone my patience with you as my pleasure with you. But I was like, Oh, look at my giftedness.
::Speaker 1
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Say that again. That's so good. Yeah, that was good.
::Speaker 3
If something comes from me and you're like, Man, that's worth writing down. I probably took it from Larry Osborne and it just drift into my head.
::Speaker 1
3000 years ago, Solomon said, There's nothing new under the sun. No good.
::Speaker 2
And I took it from Solomon. No, Larry. I was like.
::Speaker 3
Don't confuse God's patience with you as his pleasure with you. God has patience with us and we assume, Hey, no lightning bolts are hitting me. Am I speaking? Is going great, I'm drawing numbers. So this thing might not be.
::Speaker 1
So clearly God's blessing. You, it's.
::Speaker 3
Samson. Samson's riding the enemy. Samson has strength, but Samson's touch a dead animals. He's in, honey. He's whipping a hundred dudes and stripping him naked to brings every vow he took about not touching dead bodies, being around it, he's breaking them. But look, I get super strength, so it must be okay with God until his last super strength is the death of his life and those around him and go, you confused God's patience with you for His pleasure with you and giftedness does that because we hide behind our giftedness and go, man, God must.
::Speaker 2
Really like me. Look how He's.
::Speaker 3
Using me and go buddy, it's a slow fuze that's burning. And if you don't get it right, it will explode on you. But I do that in my life. I did that. I looked at giftedness in others instead of their character and you know, platform that. That's been a huge one.
::Speaker 1
How did how did God get through to you on some of those things?
::Speaker 3
Because some he still is. You know, it still is. I am. I think that's why my teaching, even at North Coast, is always I've never preached that people I put myself in the boat first and then I go, let me tell you, I'm in this boat. Anybody else want to listen?
::Speaker 2
And there are sometimes people go, man.
::Speaker 3
Our pastors seems like he struggles with a lot. And I'm like.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, he may be.
::Speaker 3
Human. Yeah, I ain't going to preach at you. I'm going to tell you, man, God's constantly working in my heart, in life and and I love that. But a lot of it is through brokenness. You get to the end of brokenness and look back and go, God, why are you doing this? I don't have those. I look back and go, God, I saw what I did.
::Speaker 3
Mm. I saw it. And our greatest nightmare should be to get away with our sin. Because if we can be successful in unfaithfulness, we have just paved a beautiful road of life and ministry without the spirit. And you can make a career out of that. And our greatest sin should be to get to our greatest fear. Nightmare should be to get away with our sin.
::Speaker 3
It is a God that pursues us not to strangle us, not his wrath, but to say, I got to bring grace and mercy into your brokenness. Otherwise you're going to stay on the path of brokenness or out brokenness.
::Speaker 1
Chris When you were just saying that, I was just thinking, man, you can you imagine the the the the scariness of the prayer? God, don't let me get away with my sin.
::Speaker 3
Yeah. I'm just, you know, want to pray because we know our sin and we kind of like, listen, yeah.
::Speaker 2
Since fun, if sin.
::Speaker 3
Isn't fun, you're doing it wrong and you're an idiot.
::Speaker 2
Why sin if it's not fun?
::Speaker 3
Short term, shorter. Short term, right? Well, even after you can live in long terms and there's long term affairs, long term pornography that can be involved in your ministry for the next 20 years. Hmm. Congratulations. But you and the Lord knows it's a ministry out of your own self. It's a ministry that's just being run by the flesh.
::Speaker 3
There's no fellowship with the spirit. There's no ease in it. And, you know, you're a hypocrite. You're standing on the stage and you're a poser. You're hiding, you know it.
::Speaker 1
But that's where you even mentioned that when you were younger, like when you were alone, you didn't like yourself. You know, I think that when we're living that way, when you're all alone and there's no one else, I think you can be joking with anybody. There's no lack. There's I mean, deep, deep, deep within our soul, you know.
::Speaker 1
Right. And you're not.
::Speaker 3
That to me, the beauty of grace and mercy when I learn to like me and be alone with me, which I thought was unfathomable. But I love I love days where Amy came home on a Saturday. She was like, I'm taking all the kids and we're going. And we got birthday parties and we got something else that we got going to the jump house with someone to do one.
::Speaker 3
And that's just me in college football on the couch. And I'm like, Oh, I love being with me. I love what God has done in and through my life, in that I don't love all that, who I am and what I've done. But in spite of that, I know how he sees me and I'm so okay being alone right now.
::Speaker 3
And I never thought I could get to that point.
::Speaker 1
So speak into that a little bit. Like how do we lead ourselves to failures? Like clearly no one listening who's honest with themselves is going to look back and say, Yeah, I don't have any regrets. I've heard someone say that before. They're like, You want to live with no regrets?
::Speaker 3
It's not going to happen. About that, I got a story where humility righteously.
::Speaker 1
Chris, you got a story.
::Speaker 3
I know this is the only one. But listen, huge military church. We're on the back gate at Camp Pendleton. About 900 Marine families, part of our church loved the men and women spouses both side. And to get.
::Speaker 1
In the ring to work.
::Speaker 3
For us. Oh, you know, it had a guy once they had a near-death thought he was going to die experience on the battlefield came back from that and said, man, pastor, I got to tell you, from here on on, I'm living a life of no regret. And I'm like, Man, I'm proud of you. Let's do it. He goes, No, you don't understand.
::Speaker 3
Whatever I want to do, whatever lust I have, whatever, pat, I'm tired of saying no to myself. I'm like, You got a wife and kids? And he goes, They're going to have to get used to it. I'm not going to put any boundaries, any barriers in my life from anything I desire to do within nine months, he has train wrecked his life, his marriage, his relationship with kids.
::Speaker 3
And I remember telling him, what if you're life of living with no regrets becomes your greatest regret. And that's where it gets in this. Hey, no regrets. You are going to regret that.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. Well, so how do you lead yourself through failures? I mean, you you've had to do it with yourself.
::Speaker 2
Oh, I think, first of all, don't lead yourself through.
::Speaker 3
First, allow the spirit to lead you to whereas you got to be open. It's the end. It's arms. 139 David, go search me and try me, see if there's any unfaithful is there anything in my life that's keeping me from the spirit?
::Speaker 1
Bring it to us because.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, because.
::Speaker 3
I. I'm not going to lead me through failure. I'm going to lead me through Chris.
::Speaker 1
You know, you know, with that answer, you're not going to be invited to these leadership talks because that's all you know. How do you lead yourself through faith? You get on the stage by coming up with some quippy little.
::Speaker 2
Quotes, but you assume I'm going to be invited to leadership talks.
::Speaker 1
I first time ever heard you were speaking at something that you never got invited back.
::Speaker 2
To that story of my life.
::Speaker 1
One of my favorite messages I've heard you speak on, but we won't go there. So. Yeah. So you're saying you really you better be careful trying to lead yourself out of it.
::Speaker 3
To lead yourself out of failure means you have the answer to your failure. You don't have the answer to your failure. The answer to your failure is freedom in Christ. It is forgiveness as grace and mercy, and it's you accepting it. Here's the beauty I love about failure as far as I read Scripture. Failure in the Bible is never a person.
::Speaker 3
now, saying, hey, remember in: ::Speaker 3
And I'm like, Oh, man, I shouldn't be teaching. And then I'm like, Wait a second.
::Speaker 2
I've never been in Dakota. I've never been with prostitutes or cocaine. And Satan is like, Oh, I almost got, you know, that's stupid.
::Speaker 1
That's not how he was.
::Speaker 3
Satan doesn't lie about you. Satan goes, Hey, Chris, can you remember 89 to 92?
::Speaker 2
He gives me years and I'm like, Yeah.
::Speaker 3
Mm. What if she's in the audience today? What if her husband said today, what if you and that's Satan has I've armed him, I've given him all the ammo to make me feel like I'm a failure. But when you read Scripture, failure may have been something you've done. It's not who you are unless you allow it to be.
::Speaker 3
And so I can't lead myself to I need God's forgiveness first. John one nine If we confess our sin, God is faithful and just He will forgive us and cleanse us from unrighteous. Chris It's not forgiveness you desperately seek. It's freedom from guilt and shame. I'm hanging on to my failures that have been long since forgiven because I haven't allowed the spirit to cleanse me from unrighteousness.
::Speaker 3
I'm trying to deny it. It's like those old horror movies where you bury something alive and it comes.
::Speaker 1
From it's coming back.
::Speaker 3
You can't outrun your past. I know people that have spent the last 15 years running from relationship to relationship state to state, and they find out wherever they go, they are there. You can't outrun yourself. What you need to do is stop. You can't lead yourself from failure and accept grace and mercy. Not just forgiveness, but freedom. And you take that and you stop and you hold it and say, God, thank you for this.
::Speaker 3
Not that I did it, not that it was done to me, but God, thank you that in spite of this failure, here's how you see me today. I'm a child of God. I'm a prince in the kingdom of Heaven. I'm not just allowed to be called a son. I'm allowed to play a role in the kingdom. And every time your past comes up to haunt you, I take grace and mercy and the cleansing from wonder.
::Speaker 3
I say, God, thank you. Thank you for that relationship. I'm so sorry I did it. But God, in spite of that, thank you for how you see me today. What happens is when the enemy stops using your past against you because it's driving me to worship. And now your past, your failure will be the enemy's greatest tool against you.
::Speaker 3
use me, I was in Fallbrook in: ::Speaker 2
By the way, whatever this person is about to say is true. And I'm going to tell you about the grace and mercy that allows me to be home, that.
::Speaker 3
I'm not hiding that man. That's been there's not a failure in my past that makes me a failure there. Events that have been covered by the cross, there's grace and mercy. And I get to walk in it so you cannot lead yourself to failure. It's a Holy Spirit, forgiveness and freedom from it. And then back to choice. I get to choose what I do with my past.
::Speaker 3
Am I going all out to haunt me or am I going to hold and say God, thank you may be part of my. It's the woman at the well. Come see a man who knows everything I've ever done. And according to the score cards, the six guys I've ever done and let me know there's living water for someone like me.
::Speaker 3
Wow. Yeah. Boy, you pushed a button. That's my story about.
::Speaker 1
Wow. But even with legalism, though, so legalism is part of your story. And what you're speaking about is that to write, I had.
::Speaker 3
To shake that off. Yeah, I think that's why I'm still a pastor or shorts and flip flops and t shirts. And our little motto.
::Speaker 1
Again, thanks for dressing up.
::Speaker 3
We do not take ourselves serious. We take the Word of God serious, but not ourselves. Let's not get caught up in the boundaries of legalism again, adding the extras of God's Word. And this is what this is where righteousness, because.
::Speaker 1
It misses out on the freedom that you were just talking.
::Speaker 3
To. Right. And it adds new failure. Now, my failure isn't sexual or sin. My failure is not being holy enough. Oh, man. Welcome to Old Testament law.
::Speaker 1
Yeah.
::Speaker 3
We're in a new covenant, a new forgiveness. So.
::Speaker 1
So. Okay, jump in that you you teach on the Bible a lot and you're a great speaker communicator who are some of your favorite characters that we have in this thing we call the Bible? Wow. That are characters of failure, overcoming failure, working through failure.
::Speaker 2
Is.
::Speaker 3
A sort. My church has a running joke that whenever I'm teaching on my guys, this is my favorite passion by them. They all laughed at like it is. Well, this week it was because I lived in it, man. It's just.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, okay. Old Testament.
::Speaker 3
If I had to pick one. Gotcha. So many. I love Barrett. I named my son Barrett just after the general because that's a whole story. But David, Old Testament, big surprise and Peter New Testament and what you why two of the biggest failures in the Bible that were allowed to still play a role in God's kingdom in spite of who they were.
::Speaker 3
David was taught to us so wrong in son is going Here's a man after God's own heart. Boys and girls be like David, oh, my wife. My neighbor's wife prays to God. I don't become like David. My kids pray that their dad is never like David. We've taught that with Sunday schools, our church is doing a series right now.
::Speaker 3
We're 50 weeks in the life of David, and I've got so many Christians been Christians for 40, 50 years coming up going. I was a little bummed and we said, we're going spend a year in David because that's when I knew man who I realize I've never read first and second Samuel. He was not supposed to be a Sunday school example of what boys and girls.
::Speaker 1
They skip those parts like we're old enough to go flannel draft boards. Right. And those are some of the stories we didn't see on our flannel graph. Nope.
::Speaker 2
I never colored this one. Yep. Well, coloring. Yeah, exactly. When you look at your school. Yeah, his color. I mean, the guy wore a white mini skirt.
::Speaker 3
I mean, that's how he appeared.
::Speaker 2
On the flannel graph. He played a harp and he has the.
::Speaker 1
White Qur'an, by the way, was the worst one.
::Speaker 2
Was the colored, is it not at least out. Right. There's some wax on it now. Yeah. And then his weapon of choice was a sling. You don't even have to get close to the battle first.
::Speaker 3
I like the chain with the spiky bowling ball. And so everything about him and he always had a little lamb, like, not a big one. He always carried a little lamb.
::Speaker 1
So I'm sure the white mini skirt.
::Speaker 3
I'm hunting, you know, I'm hunting water moccasins, turtle.
::Speaker 2
Softshell.
::Speaker 3
Turtles. And then this guy gets put on the board and goes, Boys and girls, look, look, look. This is a man after God's own heart. Not once again, I was like, Well, God don't like me then, because there's nothing about this kid that matches me. This was Monster supposed to be read NC 17 at best with adult eyes and go Oh, David is an example for me to learn from.
::Speaker 3
To see that God is the main character in the story, not him. Oh, I pray to God. I never become like David. My wife prays. Don't ever let Chris become like David. Don't get me wrong, he's got some incredible high points. But his lows are the lowest in the Bible. And people. People just don't read them. Mm hmm.
::Speaker 3
And so we did a series on it, man. And it's been so beneficial to the church just looking at basically it's a 50 week study on failure and knowing who God is in spite of us. Wow. So I'm teaching him right now. So, okay, favorite character.
::Speaker 2
Old Testament, David. But whoever I teach next.
::Speaker 1
He'll be your favorite. Yeah.
::Speaker 3
And then Peter because oh man, was this guy allowed to be with Jesus even though I got it? I mean, he's the guy that taught Jesus out of the.
::Speaker 2
Cross at least that what that was his best is like, I got to keep this guy from dying. And I'm like, You talk salvation off of the Bible. I'm glad you didn't listen.
::Speaker 3
To him, but he called him Satan. Yeah, but then you see what he turns out to become and go when Peter gets a hold of grace and mercy after denying Jesus cussing about him the night that he dies when Peter. And that's why he has to have them. Do you remember? Arisen Jesus appears the disciples don't show up for the first Easter service three times Jesus used social media to say, Look, I'm going to Jerusalem.
::Speaker 2
I'm going to allow them to kill me three days later I'm going to pull off Easter and Jesus comes out of the tomb and no one's there for Easter. And he's like, Man, these guys couldn't even trust me for three days. And so he sends word, tell all the.
::Speaker 3
Disciples to meet me. And I love that little phrase, you know, tell the disciples. And Peter well, Peter's mentioned my name because Jesus loves, you know, Peter's mentioned by name because he knows his failures have got him locked out of the club.
::Speaker 1
There's no way he wants to see him face to face right now.
::Speaker 2
Peter whatever you people.
::Speaker 3
Yeah, whatever type of people God is looking for, it ain't me. Because I know who I am and what I've done. So he gets the only invite by name because Jesus knows he's not shown he blew a shot.
::Speaker 1
You know, I've often thought about this with Peter, too, that the moment in Jesus life that he needed Peter the most, and that's when he failed him. Yeah.
::Speaker 3
We've all failed Jesus.
::Speaker 2
But while Jesus.
::Speaker 3
Is getting the smack beat out of me at his trial, getting a crown of thorns on his back, lay it open. I have never stood in that courtroom and curse Jesus. Yeah, that was Peter's. Yeah. That's why he's not invited to the club anymore. And that's why Jesus calls him by name. That type of betrayal is why I took the cross, man, that when I my life needed that my life didn't need some.
::Speaker 3
Jeremiah too. Well, God has a great plan for you to bless your life. And I'm like, Shut up. What I need to hear is you are just a garbage bag full of filth and you are called by name and you are really, really liked by a creator that knows you have made all the wrong choices in this game of choice.
::Speaker 3
Now, that's what I need to hear still constantly today.
::Speaker 1
And.
::Speaker 3
See how I brought it back to choice. See what I do is what I did.
::Speaker 1
Because you masterful. That's why we needed you on this podcast. Do you know what the incredible thing about that is? That God then actually even uses our brokenness? Oh, right. Like not only does he like us in spite of it, but he ends up using. So again, the story that we're making the movie out of no gray areas.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, this two guys, they were both about 22 to 24 years old at the time. And they're still paying their in their fifties now, early fifties. And they're still paying for the consequences of the choices. They both still carry felon. And then everywhere they go, one of the guy lost his NBA career out of it. So, you know, when they go talk to youth, they're often talking about like, be careful the choices you make you're going to carry with you.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, but the beauty of the stories that you're speaking of and even your own story is not only does God still like you, in spite of those, you're still you can deal with consequences. He'll sometimes he'll somehow work those for.
::Speaker 3
Good, right? Even this being able to share who I am in my story, you know, I'm not going to come and go, hey, I.
::Speaker 2
Want you to come and talk about the size of your church.
::Speaker 3
Success. You only get somebody else. Yeah, that the none of that's due to me or about me. You want to get me going? Go. I'm going to talk about the why? Because there's somebody watching or listening this podcast going. I don't like being alone because when I'm alone, I don't like who I'm with. You will never lead yourself out of there.
::Speaker 3
You got to allow Christ and the size of that cross and grace and forgiveness to lead you other there and to give you a new title and identity. You're not fair. Failure is something you've done. It's not who you are. You're allowed to think that for the rest of your life that's the enemy. Or you can see yourself as fruitful.
::Speaker 3
Your past will be the greatest weapon against your for you. I love that battle. There's not a place I go where I don't talk about. Let me tell you what God's done in spite of me. Yeah.
::Speaker 1
I love how you say it's an event. Yeah, you. You're failure, and.
::Speaker 3
Your event could be ten years of failure, but still, it's choice you made. It's not you. God cannot see people as failure. God did not give his son for failures. He saw that your choices made you think you're a failure yeah, but you're not. It's redeemable.
::Speaker 1
Yeah.
::Speaker 3
Again, it's the woman at the well. She's been in five marriages. The guy she's sleeping with right now isn't her husband. That's why she's at the well at noon. The women come to the well in the morning and the cool the day. She's trying to get away from all the talk. She's trying to get away from her story.
::Speaker 3
Her greatest nightmare is that she's going to be found out. And Jesus stops at that, sends the disciples in the town. This is why I have to go through Samaria, because he knows he's going to meet her and let her know. True worshipers will worship God in spirit. And in truth, we've got a lot of Christians today trying to worship God spiritually, but they're not worshiping God with the truth of them.
::Speaker 3
And you will not worship God you spiritually. You're going to have a great Sunday service. You're going to have a great Hallelujah Jamboree Friday night. You're going to have a great worship time. And by the time you get to your car, you're back to you and the truth. And God says, I want the truth. So He goes after the woman, and once He finds the disciples on the shore, he pulls Peter aside and says, Do you love me too, Joe?
::Speaker 3
I mean, I know you rejected me and curse me three times. I need the truth. Otherwise your truth is going to haunt you through all my fear that will set you free.
::Speaker 1
And the truth. And then it's so interesting, the words that she uses, right? Come and see the one who knows everything. Everything about me.
::Speaker 3
I'm trying to.
::Speaker 2
Remember everything about.
::Speaker 3
Me. And now it's part of her story. In one afternoon, she's set free from herself. Yeah. She encountered Jesus at the. Well, it took me a little longer than that. But still, that's the purpose of most Christians aren't struggling with forgiveness. They're struggling with freedom from their past. Yeah. You know, I've talked to how many of you still feel how many of you believe this one that I love to do this talk?
::Speaker 3
How many you believe that if you ask for forgiveness, Jesus will completely forgive you? All the hands. Christians raise their hands. How many of you have asked for forgiveness for the exact same event? More than five to almost every hand. I'm like you hypocrites. You just told me you're forgiven. Why do you keep go? It's not forgiveness. It's the guilt and shame you still carry and that you haven't dealt with at the well or at the cross.
::Speaker 3
Yeah.
::Speaker 1
That's where truth comes in, right?
::Speaker 3
That's why I get to worship God. The truth. Truth of it, you're allowed your past to be used against you.
::Speaker 1
Well, I wanted to end this podcast by asking you to leave us with some hope as we were talking about leading ourselves to failure. But all you've been speaking about is the hope in that, right? Not not in our sleeping ourselves, but the fact that we can't in the hope is in the.
::Speaker 2
Fact that here's the hope. You've got a lot of failures.
::Speaker 3
You can't lead yourself out of failure. Good news. The cross was big enough and the spirit cleanses you from guilt and shame. You fall into that and you'll find freedom, not just forgiveness. That's your hope. You only bring failure to the game. You don't bring a road out. Yeah, he does. If you have a way to lead yourself to failure, the cross was unnecessary.
::Speaker 3
Yeah. Oh, that's good. That is good. That might not be from Larry Osborne. That may have been mine. That was.
::Speaker 1
That was Christian Chris. Truism right there. Yeah. Well, Chris, thanks so much, man. I really appreciate it. I think, again, when we talk about the theology of choice, the value of choice, the power of choice that God gave us, like you said, the first few pages in the Bible, it's part of the story. We really screwed that up as humans.
::Speaker 1
We also see that we do well with that as humans at times too. Even people don't know God, you see beauty, truth and goodness.
::Speaker 3
Great joy all over the world. Yeah, choice to love.
::Speaker 1
But I love what you say and what you're leaving us with it. You can try to lead yourself out of your failures. We've all tried it. Yeah. And I think anybody listening knows when they're all alone with themselves, they know they can do it.
::Speaker 3
Good luck being your own savior. Yeah. If you could have, then the cross is ludicrous.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, but then we have a God that likes us. Yeah.
::Speaker 3
That's the great truth. He cannot. Will not ever take his eyes. His hands off of us, because he made us to be his. He knows we're full of trash. He knows we messed the diapers. He knows we stink. But we are his and we don't think we're lovable and likable that way. But man, you there's two truths. There's the truth of who you are and what you deserve.
::Speaker 3
And that's real. And there's the truth of how God sees you. Most of us live in the truth of who we are and what we deserve. There's a higher truth you have to accept. Even though this is true, here's how God sees you. And that was hard for me to accept because I couldn't forget myself.
::Speaker 1
What would you recommend to someone? Because I know there's some people listening who would say, You just you just talked about this, too. I'm definitely over here. Yeah. What would you recommend to them right now?
::Speaker 3
I'd say the simplest thing is you need to go to the well. You need to find a spot where you can sit with God and say, I'm tired and tired of running from it, trying to cover it, trying to bury it and trying to hide it because God, you know it. I just need to sit here and go, God, here's my past and here's my greatest and and they are yours.
::Speaker 3
I'm not asking for forgiveness because I've done that a hundred times. Is forgiven. God free me from guilt and shame. By doing that, you hold it up and say God thank you. Not that it happened, that it wasn't, but God, thank you. That in spite of this, I'm going to start walking. As someone who has loved someone who has liked, someone who is wanted and someone you are passionate about.
::Speaker 3
I have a new title. I'm going to leave this truth about me and walk in a higher truth. Now, let me tell you, that's a commitment you make, but it's a lot like dieting. You make a commitment to diet and you didn't lose £80. You've now got to walk out that commitment almost every day that thoughts are going to come back and you grab that thought and you do the same prayer.
::Speaker 3
God, that's true. I'm not going to deny it. But in spite of that, I'm going to choose to know that I am loved, I am light, I'm deeply want. In your passion about me. I'm going to walk as your child. I promise you. It's only going to be a matter of weeks or months before you stop doing it daily.
::Speaker 3
Then may only do it once a week. And they're going to say, You know what? I only had that guilt or shame once this month, and then the next thing you know, you're going to go, Hey, come see a guy that knows everything about me, including this, this, this and that. 91 to 93.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. Can't help but think of one of my favorite verses. And I mean, at this time, Johnny, when the sun set you free, you know, Randy, it's it's. It's God's heart for us. Freedom. Not, not just that. I love what you said. Not just forgiveness, but freedom.
::Speaker 3
I thought I was wrestling with forgiveness. I had no problem forgiveness. I had not tasted freedom in Christ. And I love the freedom.
::Speaker 1
I guarantee you there's a bunch of listeners right now that are going I get the forgiveness thing is that freedom thing I desperately want. So thank you. Well, hey, we end our podcast with a fun little game. So they've been listening to you for about 45 minutes. I've known you for a couple of years. Two truths in a lie.
::Speaker 1
Okay. See if you can stump us.
::Speaker 2
Two truths and.
::Speaker 3
A lie and you got to pick which the lie is. Okay. I have been bitten by a shark once I danced with Masai warriors after killing a lion and I painted the big Hollywood sign that overlooks Los Angeles that you see in all the iconic movies and postcards. I've been hit by a shark. Once I danced with the Masai tribe after killing a lion, and I painted the Hollywood sign.
::Speaker 2
All I know it's three lies in no truth. Right? Is that the game? No. They go to truth in a lie. That's.
::Speaker 1
I usually do pretty well with this. I don't have a clue. I do like how you how you made sure to say once with the shark, I've been bitten by a shark once.
::Speaker 3
It's hard to be bitten numerous times.
::Speaker 2
But you also know I'm a big saltwater fish. I do, I do.
::Speaker 1
So that's what I'm going to say. It's truth because you're out in the ocean a lot. So were you bitten by a shark once?
::Speaker 2
Nope. Oh, you're so proud. That's the life. Look at you. You so proud? Yeah. All right. That's the one I pick on.
::Speaker 3
People that know me, know I'm a saltwater freak.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, but I've caught a.
::Speaker 3
Lot of sharks, a lot of make, a lot of thresher cuts and blues. But I've never I've respected the head of a shark. Even once you cut it off or flaying it, it's still in the corner of the boat chewing on the gun. Yeah. No, I was with the Maasai tribe out in the Serengeti after they killed nine, and they did the big orange.
::Speaker 3
They wear these orange and they pogo.
::Speaker 1
And they're the ones that jump up and.
::Speaker 3
Down is with Compassion International and they're like, come out. So I'm out, I'm jump. I didn't kill the lion, but it was after you lion kill.
::Speaker 2
And I'm jumping up and down like I'm in National Geographic. This is amazing. And one of the paint contract I.
::Speaker 1
Saw that Channel Geographic and you were not in the picture. You must have been just outside of the frame.
::Speaker 2
My vertical doesn't quite go with these boys, but the hair at the bottom of the most amazing experience. And then I.
::Speaker 3
One of our painting contractors got the thing to paint the big Hollywood sign. And he goes, Hey, Chris, these are like we have lifts up there and everything. You can't get to that sign. It's it's got so much surveillance, so much video, so much cut because everyone tries to go out there and he's like, it's locked down. But he said, We're going up.
::Speaker 3
And I said, Oh, heck yeah. So they put me up on the lift and I'm on the D and I took a video crew with me and I'm painting it and I did something up on the high, but I'm like, Oh yeah, I painted the D on the Hollywood.
::Speaker 1
When was that recent? No, long time ago. Yeah, that's pretty cool. 14 years. A great cool. Well, Chris, thanks so much for joining us.
::Speaker 2
Really appreciate it, man. Love what you do.
::Speaker 1
What you think, love. Thanks. Thanks so much for joining us on the No Go Areas podcast. I think you would agree that today's episode with Chris Brown was incredibly powerful, and so would you remember that your failure is only event? It's not a character quality. So I ask you, how will you choose love today? This week, this month?
::Speaker 1
Remember to subscribe to the No Gray Areas podcast like us and share us. Thank you.
