The Stuff No One is Talking About - Addressing Difficult Conversations Around Mental Health | Ep. 32 with Tony Rodarte
Asking for help is not a sign of weakness. We're not all ok, and that's ok! As a society, we need to address the difficult conversations of mental health, especially for our first responders. We must better protect those who protect us.
Learn from retired Police Officer, Tony Rodarte, about his experience dealing with trauma and how he is working to assist others.
To learn more about Tony's nonprofit, The Compassion Alliance, visit https://compassion-alliance.org/
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Transcript
Host
You're listening to the No Grey Areas podcast with Patrick McCalla. Today's guest is Tony Rodarte, already retired police officer and founder, CEO of the Compassion Alliance. Tony encourages us to address the elephant in the room. Let's dove.
::Patrick McCalla
In. Tony. Rodarte
::Tony Rodarte
You got.
::Patrick McCalla
It. I got.
::Tony Rodarte
It. I said you last week. You got it.
::Patrick McCalla
Perfect. The truth is, that was take ten, right?
::Tony Rodarte
True. But who needs to know?
::Patrick McCalla
Yes, we'll keep that between us. Tony, it's so good to have you on the No Gray Areas podcast. We just met for the first time. A mutual friend introduced us about a week ago, right?
::Tony Rodarte
We did. You did.
::Patrick McCalla
And I was into the conversation about 3 minutes. And I'm going, Oh, man, I'm so glad that our mutual friend introduced another person.
::Tony Rodarte
And I want to duly noted. I was into the conversation before we even met, just when we had the texting string. You write your replies. I'm like, that guy's spot on. We are now officially friends. Yeah.
::Patrick McCalla
And then you sent a gif and that was where I knew like there was a there.
::Tony Rodarte
I guess my gift game was strong.
::Patrick McCalla
It was it was really strong. Well, you have a fascinating background. You were in law enforcement for a long time. Just just set us up with that. What?
::Tony Rodarte
law enforcement. I retired in: ::Patrick McCalla
And what what are the different things that you did during that time?
::Tony Rodarte
So the vast majority of my time were in investigations and really more specifically in our homicide unit. So my last 11 years where in our homicide unit I actually retired out of that unit.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah, 11 years working with homicide.
::Tony Rodarte
11 years. Yeah. So we covered homicides. We covered deputy involved shootings in that unit. We covered some long term missing in that unit. We covered unidentified human remains in that unit. We also covered cold case or cold case or unresolved homicides.
::Patrick McCalla
And that's a lot of heavy stuff you were dealing with. And right like that, that's not like you come home from work every day and you just work with some light and fluffy things or so. I mean.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, you know, I would share this with friends, my social circle, if you think about it every single day in that homicide unit was the absolute worst day in the history of the family that we're dealing with. And that cycle just repeats over and over and over.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah, we're going to get into that in this podcast, you know, how do you deal with that? How do you deal with the darkness in there? But because that is it's you were dealing with that, but first responders are often dealing with that, right?
::Patrick McCalla
Oh, yeah.
::Tony Rodarte
That's absolutely across the board.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah. Yeah. Which is why. Let's jump right into that, too. You actually have started a nonprofit. We did, yeah. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, absolutely. So my wife and I started a nonprofit when I retired. And I just want to pause for a minute and just say that my wife is awesome. She's amazing, and I thank God for every day. But she got me through just a I don't want to call it crazy career, but just a roller coaster of
::Tony Rodarte
a career. And she was my biggest supporter, continues to be my biggest supporter. But throughout.
::Patrick McCalla
I imagine that's huge with the kind of things you were dealing with.
::Tony Rodarte
Absolutely. 100%. Yeah. I successfully left law enforcement on my terms. I like to think I was really good when I left and it felt good leaving at the top of my game. But it was time to go after 20 years and my wife in the background was saying, Let's get you some help, let's get you some help
::Tony Rodarte
rofit now that we launched in: ::Tony Rodarte
And every single day we're continuing to advocate and fight for the first responders that need our support and care so deeply. I lived in that world, you know, and we have to change the dynamics of those conversations. And we were blessed to start this nonprofit.
::Tony Rodarte
We're blessed that it's still moving forward and we take it incredibly seriously. Yeah.
::Patrick McCalla
I, I have some friends. Close friends. You're becoming one of those now two that were, have been first responders or our first responders. And they should be the heroes of our society. I mean, you are choosing to go into a career field where, like you said, you're dealing with some of the most desperate, heart wrenching situations.
::Patrick McCalla
You're dealing with families that are maybe at the lowest point in their life. So so you're dealing with that constantly. And there's no way that doesn't affect you as a person, as a human, your psyche. Right.
::Tony Rodarte
There's no way. Yeah. And if you talk to a first responder and they tell you how, it doesn't impact me. Hogwash. I'm not buying it. Yeah, it affects some, but just to what level? And that's that's what we're dealing with.
::Tony Rodarte
You know, if you think about it, like I went through the police academy in the late nineties, we weren't talking about this stuff. I like to think the present day police academies are different, but we weren't back then.
::Tony Rodarte
And you're not getting the tools, the resources to be able to unpack what you're going to see. Because the reality is and it's an extreme example being in a homicide unit, but I saw horrendous things. I saw the absolute underbelly of society and the.
::Tony Rodarte
The general public doesn't know how violent the really the world is, but the things we saw, we were never given tools to unpack that process, that walk through, that work through that. And so that's what we're trying to do, is just change the dynamics of those conversations and let our first responders know that we care deeply about
::Tony Rodarte
them. That and I say this all the time and I'll continue to say this all the time. They're not broken. They're just a little bit little tweaked. We've all been there. Guilty. 100%.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah. When you say changing the dynamics of the conversation, what are some of those dynamics that need to be shifted or change? So, you.
::Tony Rodarte
Know, every. And let me first define first responder. So how we define it through our nonprofit, The Compassion Alliance, is anybody that could show up on your doorstep if you called 911, there'd be a fire truck, police car, ambulance.
::Tony Rodarte
We include 911 dispatchers. They're a totally forgotten people class. And they have mass agents, too. That's how we define first responders. When we talk about changing the dynamics, you know, every agency is a little different. Some agencies are better.
::Tony Rodarte
Some agencies are still in the dark ages. But we've got to bring these conversations to the forefront, and we have to just address the elephant in the room. We're not all, okay, let's just start there. We're not all.
::Tony Rodarte
Okay. We got to get past the the the stigma of asking for help is a sign of weakness. We got to do better about the mental well-being. And we got to just addressed and I don't want to say the awkwardness, so I'll just say the elephant in the room.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, we just have to address it. We can't pretend it's not there because we know that it's there. If you look at the suicide rates for police and fire for the last several years, they are greater than line of duty deaths.
::Tony Rodarte
That statistic in and of itself should make everybody just stop.
::Patrick McCalla
You think.
::Tony Rodarte
About the complexity of what we're dealing with.
::Patrick McCalla
And I don't want anybody to miss that. So you just said that the suicides for first responders far outweigh the.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, we're losing more in the men and women that are first responders to suicide than we are line of duty deaths.
::Patrick McCalla
Oh, man, that that's not right.
::Tony Rodarte
No, it's not rational. And that's why we need to start addressing these conversations now. You know, a suicide is an extreme example of somebody that's hurting and going through serious has serious needs. But what if we can put mom or dad back at the dinner table?
::Tony Rodarte
What if we can put mom or dad back at the soccer game on a Saturday watching the kid? You get you go down this rabbit hole of seeing this just death and destruction and all these bad things. And you start holding back.
::Tony Rodarte
You start withdrawing. I was guilty of it. I started catching myself. You know, I was missing dinner. I was missing a lot of things. I had a great safety net in place. My wife. But not everybody has that.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah. If you look statistically at marriages to alone with first responders, so many of them are failed marriages. Yeah. So they may not have that spouse that supportive. And a lot of these men and women are just completely on their own.
::Tony Rodarte
So suicide, extreme example. But what if we can just put mom or dad back at the table engaging in everyday activities with kiddo? I think that's where we need to start.
::Patrick McCalla
They're emotionally invested in their marriage or they're emotionally invested with the children?
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, absolutely.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah. Well, there's a stigma, too, that you were talking to me about when we met that first time, that coffee shop where first responders felt like if they asked for help, they were afraid of their future career as well, too.
::Patrick McCalla
Like, that's something that needs to change. Like if yeah, if I go apply for another job and then found out that I went into therapy for something, I'm broken, so I may not get my next job.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, you know, and it's kind of unique. I'm kind of like an old dog. I hate even saying that. But the reality is I've retired. Things have changed a little bit. The stigma may or may not have changed.
::Tony Rodarte
I keep saying this. I think, look, I think law enforcement is better now. We're not great, but I think we're better. But when I was going through with the guys in my demographic, there was a stigma. You weren't we weren't paying you to cry.
::Tony Rodarte
We weren't paying you to have issues. We're paying you to solve crimes.
::Patrick McCalla
You deal with that at home?
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah. You deal with that at home.
::Patrick McCalla
That's that was the idea. Yeah.
::Tony Rodarte
We got to break that. There's still some of that going on. Yeah. And even if that's not going on, the perception is that it is going on. Hmm. So we still got to address it.
::Patrick McCalla
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. On your website, there's a couple of things in the paragraph that's kind of given your bio. It says this that you're passionate, you have a passion for working with unidentified human remains. I put a smiley face next to that because I don't know that a lot of people would be like, I have a
::Patrick McCalla
passion for working with unidentified human remains. Explain that for us.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah. You know, it's it's actually it's it's a sad subject. The amount of unidentified human remains in Arizona alone is just scary. We have an Internet.
::Patrick McCalla
So there's no pressure for these families.
::Tony Rodarte
There's not. And you got to be careful with the word closure, too, as a really closure. Once the loved one is identified as being deceased. Deceased? Mm hmm. Some say yes. Some say no. But I had the opportunity to be able to work a lot of those cases and it's just incredible the need is there limited resources
::Tony Rodarte
on them? You know, I say this to I believe I firmly believe I'm standing before you. Everybody deserves a name, period. I don't care what they did. I don't care what kind of criminal history they may have had.
::Tony Rodarte
I don't care how stellar of a citizen they were. I don't care how they got to our country. They deserve the dignity to have a name. Everybody came into this world with a name. They deserve that dignity to leave the world with that name.
::Tony Rodarte
And so I worked those cases and it wasn't just me. It's an entire squad. There's a lot of dedicated men, women who care deeply about these cases. And it's heartbreaking. It's heart wrenching when you get into these cases because the stories are all so different.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah. You know, when I found out there's a common theme, these families just think their loved one is just missing. They don't know. And they think the loved one may have left for whatever reason. And they start assuming a lot of stuff.
::Tony Rodarte
That is unfortunate because a loved one went out, may have got hurt, may have got lost, succumbed to the environment, perished. Family just thinks they left. They were just done with the marriage or whatever. So there's scenarios like that.
::Tony Rodarte
You are able to answer some questions for the family, but like, I get where you're coming from, but I don't laugh. I don't joke about it. I don't even think about it.
::Patrick McCalla
It's a serious thing.
::Tony Rodarte
It's a serious thing. And it's heartbreaking if you saw the numbers that were out there.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah, no, I imagine you. You. I didn't miss the fact that you said closure isn't a good term to use. What would you. What else?
::Tony Rodarte
I'm not going to say it's not a good term to lose, but there's certain terms like even cold case, you know, that could be offensive to a family. If you think the case has gone cold, it's unresolved. It hasn't been resolved yet.
::Tony Rodarte
Okay. I just want to be hypersensitive and look at things from the perspective of the family and the victim's family.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah. And I suppose the number of cases that you've worked, you can see through their lens a little bit better than maybe some of us that haven't done so.
::Tony Rodarte
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
::Patrick McCalla
You've sat with a lot of these families.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, 100%. And I don't fault you to be clear for how you react or what you think. I just look at it differently and I try and look at it through the lens of the family, because a lot of these cases for so many years, that family's been neglected.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah. Yeah. Not necessarily by law enforcement in general, but sometimes by society, sometimes through their church, their social circles, they're being considered outcasts for whatever reasons. And so I try and just look at it through their lens. And I think it made I think it made me a better detective to being able to look at it through
::Tony Rodarte
their lens.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah, I have no doubt. I mean, just sitting here talking to you and I imagine you sitting with one of those families, it was beyond just business or beyond just work, just the way that you're you're talking about the importance of the term.
::Patrick McCalla
Terminology that you use. And yeah, another thing that you said that your passion about bringing to light the needs of first responders.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah.
::Patrick McCalla
And a lot of that is from your own story.
::Tony Rodarte
My own story. You know, I'm I am the story of the Compassion Alliance. You know, for years I was in this unit for over a decade. For over a decade. I had a wife at home saying, let's get some help.
::Tony Rodarte
Let's talk. And for over a decade, I said, no, I'm not showing any kinks in my armor. I'm not going to be considered unfit for duty. I'm not and I'm not saying my agency would have treated me like that, but that's the only perception I had.
::Tony Rodarte
And so I elected not to get help until I retired. And that's part of my story now. And people need to hear that. I retired. I went and talked to somebody. It was like the weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders.
::Tony Rodarte
It was the best thing I ever did in our men. And women don't need to wait till they retire. Yeah, and that's that's what we're trying to do through the Compassion Alliance. So we do this in a way that still honors where they're at because we don't know what agency is forward thinking, which agency is archaic.
::Tony Rodarte
So we set up a platform where they can reach out to us directly. They don't have to go to their supervisor, Battalion Chief Sergeant H.R., and worry about a paper trail, worry about insurance. They reach out to us.
::Tony Rodarte
We say, Look, we care deeply about you. We love you. Thank you for your service. Allow us to help you. And we're just a financial bridge, you know. So we use our five L and C three funds. I write the check for therapy.
::Tony Rodarte
We don't get involved with the therapy. We're not anywhere involved in that process. It's not it's not my wheelhouse. I don't know anything about that. So we connect them with a therapist. We can do it in person. We can do it online virtually.
::Tony Rodarte
And we are strictly here for the Compassion Alliance. Two reasons to advocate for our first responders and to tell them that they mattered deeply to us and to put our money where our mouth is and to pay for those services.
::Patrick McCalla
Wow, that is it. That's incredible. So let's say I was a police officer, a fireman or something like that. And I was I was struggling with some of these things. I could come to your nonprofit and say, I feel like I need to get some help.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah.
::Patrick McCalla
Absolutely. And you going to you're going to connect them to someone who can give them help and then provide the funding for it?
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, absolutely. That's exactly what it looks like.
::Patrick McCalla
Wow. That's that is incredible. So, okay, let's get a little messy here, you and I.
::Tony Rodarte
All right. Do I need a role to save up?
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah. Let's we go up our sleeves and dig into this some. So there's this, you know, this this this term is used often, and it's thrown around a lot. PTSD. Mm hmm. Post-Traumatic stress disorder. Right. You. Right. Before we turn these mikes on, you were saying.
::Patrick McCalla
Well, that's that's a messy. And I actually, the military guy that I am friends with, he's talked about the same thing. Mm hmm. You know that that's a little messy terminology now. Unpack that for a little bit, because most people, if they just heard what you said before about what you do, they would go, oh, you're dealing
::Patrick McCalla
with first responders who have PTSD. Yeah, that's what most people would say.
::Tony Rodarte
So is it a disease? Is it a disorder? Is it whatever? I don't know. I know those decisions are well above my pay grade. I care deeply about our men and women and what they're seeing, what they're encountering, what they're experiencing.
::Tony Rodarte
And we just want to get them help. And and I don't want to get stuck in the weeds on really what's wrong with them, because that's not my specialty. But we have access to specialists who do know that and can come alongside them and have those conversations.
::Tony Rodarte
And so I try and just I mean, pretty surface. It's probably not the answer you want on this podcast, but I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole on what it's called. I don't care what it's called.
::Tony Rodarte
What I care about is we have men and women that have trauma that they've experienced and we want to get them help. Yeah. And what you want to call it, I'm okay with what the therapist wants to call them.
::Tony Rodarte
I'm okay with.
::Patrick McCalla
Just get them help.
::Tony Rodarte
What the general public might want to call them. I'm probably not okay with so hits on it depends on our audience and our environment but I can't emphasize enough. Asking for help does not mean that you're broken. Yeah.
::Tony Rodarte
Asking for help doesn't mean that your self-worth has diminished.
::Patrick McCalla
It hasn't probably means that you're human, doesn't it?
::Tony Rodarte
100%. And it probably means you're at a stage in your life now where you realize you need a little bit of help. Yeah, and that's okay.
::Patrick McCalla
Because you've seen some really horrendous things. And if you're struggling with that, that's just displaying the humanness of you.
::Tony Rodarte
We are not designed to see what we see. Hmm. We are not designed as it is, to process the evil that we see. There are things that I saw in that 11 year career in homicide that I won't share with you.
::Tony Rodarte
I won't. I think even when we met the first time, I'm not sharing stories with you. I have stories that will make your toenails curl, but I don't want those images in your head. That's not fair to you.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah. And so our men and women are seeing that every day. Some are getting help. Far too many are not getting help. And then at the end of the day, they're stuck to their own vices of processing that and trying to walk through that.
::Patrick McCalla
Tony I think it's like it's for our audience right now listening. Some of them may be listening and they're interested in this because maybe they have a friend that's a first responder. But I hope they wouldn't just think of someone else because they may not be a first responder, but there's been some trauma in their life and
::Patrick McCalla
this applies to them that maybe they're going, Man, I, I'm dealing with some stuff right now.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, it really does. I think it really everybody I don't care what your career is or where you're at, there's probably some trauma in your life. The thing unique about us is that we're trying to set the process up for our first responders where it takes the added stress off of it.
::Tony Rodarte
If you're a counselor, if you're a pastor, or if you're a small business owner, there are a lot of resources out there. There really is. Whether or not you choose to pursue them, there are. If you're a first responder, there's very few that are dedicated to what it's like to be a first responder.
::Tony Rodarte
And so we try and just focus our attention specifically on those career choices. But you're absolutely right. If you're a schoolteacher, if you're really anything, there's probably to some degree some trauma out there. I just think the numbers and the proportions are greater for first responders than the average or citizen that's out there for sure.
::Patrick McCalla
I can't imagine anybody disagreeing with that. Just again, the stuff that you deal with, use the phrase before, how do we protect those who protect us? Yeah. And that's that's one.
::Tony Rodarte
And that's what we're talking about doing. Yeah, absolutely.
::Patrick McCalla
I love how that's phrased. I loved how that's worded because we pick up the phone and we call 911 because we need protection or we need help or we. But I don't think a lot of us do think through they're protecting us.
::Patrick McCalla
How do we help protect them? Right.
::Tony Rodarte
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm hoping that through the course of this podcast and we're talking about certain things, that people will start looking at this differently. And I'm going to encourage your audience. You know, they may not be a first responder, but do they know a first responder?
::Tony Rodarte
Do they have somebody in their small Bible study in their neighborhood, a family member or a coworker that knows of a first responder that can share our information? Yeah, it's really important.
::Patrick McCalla
What would you recommend? So. So right now the audience is listening and they're going, I they have someone in there. They have a name or a face that popped in their mind. Right now, a first responder. What would you recommend we do?
::Patrick McCalla
How do we encourage first responder?
::Tony Rodarte
So in order for that first responder to get help, part of the process is they need to reach out and ask for the help. We can't give them help if they're not ready to have help, and that comes up often.
::Tony Rodarte
So I would encourage your audience, have that conversation with your first responder, say, look, I heard about this organization. It may or may not be for you. Check out the website. Just share the website. Start that conversation. I've had family members reach out to me.
::Tony Rodarte
Whoever reaches out to me, I'm going to respond back in. And we may be in a position where we can't help depending on the circumstances, if it's not a first responder, things like that, but never going to leave you hanging.
::Tony Rodarte
I'll refer you somewhere, have this conversation. But it's imperative for the first responder to be in a position where they need the help. Now they see it, they're accepting it because I can't give them help if they're not.
::Tony Rodarte
I'll also tell you this and this is heartbreaking. And one thing I won't do is I won't disclose who's reached out, what agencies, anything like that. We're not going to jeopardize the trust that we have. But it is heartbreaking the amount of first responders that reach out and they think they want help.
::Tony Rodarte
And we start this process and I just can't get them to commit.
::Patrick McCalla
Why do you think that is?
::Tony Rodarte
I think truly because of the stigma and truly because we're still in an area in this career where we're not doing enough for it. So let's use the military. For example, the military for years did not address the needs of trauma therapy in the services.
::Tony Rodarte
I think they are now slowly but surely, they're doing more now than they ever were 20 years ago. Law enforcement has not got there yet. And so I'll have folks that will reach out. And oftentimes it's a family member that shares the information they get on the website.
::Tony Rodarte
They contact us, I reach back out and it just turns into a convo conversation going back and forth. Tell them what we offer. Tell them what the process looks like. Just can't get them to commit. And then I'll have other ones that reach out and they're boom.
::Tony Rodarte
Ready to go now it takes really, really. No, I don't have to answer any questions on that one. So we run the gamut. It just depends on where people are at. But I just want to make it clear that first responder has to be in a position in their life where they are ready for the help, because
::Tony Rodarte
if they're not ready, we're not going to be successful at getting them help.
::Patrick McCalla
Well, and I love what you're what you're recommending. It's a very easy, tangible step to take is to just share your information, which right now I want to pause. Give us that information. Yeah, so much so. If you're driving your car, pull off the side of the road right now so that you can get ready to jot
::Patrick McCalla
this down, take notes on your phone. But if we sat down and we talked to a first responder and we said, hey, great organization, I'd love for you to reach out to them at some point just to check them out.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah, they would look at what.
::Tony Rodarte
They would look at our website, it's compassion dash alliance dot org. So our organization is the Compassion Alliance. Compassion Dash Alliance dot org. You can contact us through that website, our phone numbers on their mailing address. Everything that you need is right there.
::Tony Rodarte
It's a one stop shop. Either share your podcast or send them to that website.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah. Hey, I like how you plug the podcast. Nice job. Thank you. Yeah, but I think that that's so important because what and I know I know you've seen this in the sense that sometimes you may talk to a first responder and like, yeah, I'm not ready.
::Patrick McCalla
They got the information, though, but something happens next week or next month or six months from now, and they start going, What was that organization? Because I'm ready now. Yeah, maybe you weren't ready when you told them, but something.
::Tony Rodarte
Happens and that's not uncommon. You know, sometimes it takes multiple touches. Maybe that first touches the neighbor, second touches your podcast. You know, third touch is them getting on the website. Yeah, it's okay. I want to just pause for a second too and just publicly say that's okay.
::Tony Rodarte
That's very normal for the process to be like that. You don't have to just go right to the website, reach out to me and we put you right in therapy. It's okay. You've it's taken you years to get to this point.
::Tony Rodarte
It may take us time to get you off of that point. Now, that's okay.
::Patrick McCalla
I'm not an expert in trauma by any means either, but I've done a lot more reading on it in recent years because some close friends of mine who were struggling with addictions and some of those things. It is, they started going through some of their therapy.
::Patrick McCalla
The therapist was talking to them saying it's not really the the chemicals you're addicted to. It's more connected to this trauma that you had in life a long time ago. And so I think just as a society and whole, we're starting to recognize in a in a whole better way what trauma does to us as humans.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, I think so too. And I think as a society, we're starting a more conversations about it too. Yeah, when we were kids, we weren't having these conversations about trauma. We just weren't.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah.
::Tony Rodarte
We weren't.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah, I don't. When I heard the word trauma growing up, probably Claire through high school, college years, trauma would always be like I broke my leg.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, someone got hurt. Yeah, well, they did, but it's a different type of hurt. Yeah, they're still getting hurt.
::Patrick McCalla
Mm hmm. And sometimes a lot more confusing type of hurt. Because if I broke my leg, it's pretty simple. Put the bone back together, you know? But. But when something happened up here, this is so. Ah, it just.
::Patrick McCalla
Humans were so complex. Yeah, they're trying to figure that out isn't easy. And that's why I love so much of your phrase about protecting those who protect us. I mean, I'm so passionate about this. Yeah. I love what you're doing, Tony, because we do have people in our city that we're sitting in Phenix, but whoever, wherever someone's
::Patrick McCalla
listening, whatever country they might be listening. Yeah. You have people that wake up every day and are going, putting their lives on the line. And when I say lives, I'm not just meaning like maybe having to give their physical life, but they're giving their lives in a sense.
::Patrick McCalla
They're they're dealing with trauma that's affecting them.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, 100%. You know, and you talk about giving your physical life. If there's a police officer, they've had that conversation with themselves. I had that conversation with myself. Am I willing to die for this profession? So that in and of itself is powerful.
::Tony Rodarte
Mm hmm. And we have men and women that are answering that every single day and getting absolutely obliterated by the media and the world that they're living in. And yet still pinning that badge on and going to work and answering that call at three in the morning when some violent.
::Tony Rodarte
Horrendous person is trying to break into a house and kill people. They're still answering that call.
::Patrick McCalla
I think if you understand the gravity of that. Or I would hope you'd be a little more open to giving a lot more grace to the men and women who are doing that. Because I'm 50 years old, and when you just said then I'm like, I don't think I've ever had a job where I sat down saying
::Patrick McCalla
, Am I willing to die for this job? You know, I've worked in churches and I work, you know, and I'm in the U.S. so I'm not. There are people that are in churches pastoring churches in certain parts of the world that are legitimately asking that question.
::Patrick McCalla
Absolutely. But for for many of the listeners, they're probably going I've never actually had to ask myself that question. Yeah. My willing to die. So you really understand, again, the gravity of what other men and women who are first responders are going through.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah. Why do you and I you touched on this a little bit, but why do you think asking for help is so frowned on? It's starting to shift, you said.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah. And you know what I think now? I don't think it's quite as frowned upon as our first responders think it is. I think we're still kind of stuck.
::Patrick McCalla
So they have a perception. It's not reality.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, but what's important is we got to meet them where their perception is because their perception is their reality. And I can relate to that. So if that's what they're going through, I'm going to meet them right there.
::Tony Rodarte
But I think in general, the stigma that used to be associated with it is a little bit less now. I think more agencies are a little more open to offering help. But again, the reality is, if that's how they feel, that's where we got to meet them and we got to unpack that together.
::Patrick McCalla
Well, that makes you feel really hopeful or what you just said. Like you're seeing it shift. You're seeing this change taking place in our culture and our society.
::Tony Rodarte
I am seeing it shift, but I'm impatient. I want that shift to be greater.
::Patrick McCalla
Why are you impatient?
::Tony Rodarte
Because there's still men and women that are not reaching out because of that perception. So we need to be engaged in conversations like this. This has to become more mainstream. The more that they're exposed to this hearing, these conversations, that may shift a little bit.
::Tony Rodarte
So I care deeply about our men and women that are hurting. I care deeply. I can't emphasize that enough these conversations and need to be happening a lot more often all over the country.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah, maybe you can help us with this. So maybe there are some first responders or some spouses of first children, family members, friends. If maybe I could ask you to be a little transparent with your journey. Sure. You said your wife was noticing some things and saying, I'd love for you to go get help.
::Patrick McCalla
What were some of those things that she was noticing?
::Tony Rodarte
So, you know, this is really kind of unique. And I don't know that I handled this the best in terms of being transparent, but how I processed what I did is I compartmentalized. Mm hmm. So I left cop work at work, my social circle.
::Tony Rodarte
I have any cop friends for the most say of a really good buddy. But we were buddies before we both became cops. When I left to work, I left that there. And so I didn't want to talk about it.
::Tony Rodarte
I didn't want to talk shop. I didn't want to share my what I was doing with my wife because those images were impacting me.
::Patrick McCalla
You certainly didn't I.
::Tony Rodarte
Didn't want them impacting my children or her so that that wasn't an option. But she continued to advocate for me. I think she to answer your question specifically, I think she probably saw me just be a little more withdrawn.
::Tony Rodarte
Okay. And that was probably the motivating factor for her saying, hey, let's get some help. Let's talk. And I had open conversations with her in that when I retire, I will answer any question you want. But until then, I need to be able to separate this.
::Tony Rodarte
I can't spend, you know, sometimes up to 100 hours in a workweek dealing with this trauma and then come home and deal with this trauma, talking about it, not having the resources to handle it. Just trying to guess.
::Tony Rodarte
I just I wasn't willing to do that.
::Patrick McCalla
You know, and I resonate a little bit with what you're saying. You know, my background a little bit. And I was working with anti-human trafficking and I get the compartmentalizing. It's it's it's almost out of necessity sometimes. It's not like it's a bad thing.
::Patrick McCalla
I know I'm not. I just heard horrific story after horrific story after horrific story day after day after day. I'm not going to come home and share that with my family. So you have to compartmentalize a little bit.
::Patrick McCalla
Right. But then there's some unhealthy things that can come out of that. Is that what you're saying?
::Tony Rodarte
Absolutely. And I can tell you now, you can only compartmentalize for so long. I was able to compartmentalize as long as I could. But then when I retired, it was time to unpack some of that and get to the next level of really getting some help.
::Tony Rodarte
And we talked about that. What does help look like? Yeah, well, I'm an advocate for professional help.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah, because you said there's a difference between real help versus help. Yeah. Okay. Professional help versus help. Yeah.
::Tony Rodarte
I think there's a tech.
::Patrick McCalla
That.
::Tony Rodarte
I think there's help in you and I can help each other. Maybe we go meet for lunch. Maybe we talk informally, but I'm not in a position to help you unpack what you're seeing and get that off your shoulders.
::Tony Rodarte
I'm in a position to say I care about you. Do I care about your marriage? I care about your kids. Call me at any time. I'll walk along side this as best I can. But I don't have the tools at my disposal to help you get past that trauma that you're encountering.
::Tony Rodarte
I will bear that trauma with you, and I will bear it with any first responder that comes into my path. But I don't have the tools to get you past it, whereas I don't want to call it real help.
::Tony Rodarte
I'll call professional help. Yeah, they have the tools. Yeah. And I think really what we need is both. There's a good blend between the two, but we got to make sure we emphasize the professional help because they do have the tools.
::Tony Rodarte
EMDR, different types of therapy tools that will get you past that trauma.
::Patrick McCalla
Did you see that in your own personal life then? Because I suspect just knowing your story, I mean, you're connected to a church and you have a good family, it sounds like. So you probably had help in your life?
::Patrick McCalla
I did, yeah. You had people walking alongside of you. People said, I care about you. Do. Let's do. But things started to change when you actually got professional help.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, absolutely. So when I went to get help, I did a therapy called the EMDR. And I can't explain that. I don't know how that works, but there were certain images that I had in my head that I couldn't get past wasn't ruining my day.
::Tony Rodarte
But I'd pause and I'm thinking way too much about some of these images wouldn't derail my day. I was lucky. There are some people where they don't get past that image and then their day shot. I would have those images.
::Tony Rodarte
I'd kind of get stuck in it a little bit while I went to get help, we went through EMDR. I don't think those images ever go away, but that image may pop up now. I'm like, Wow, that sucked.
::Tony Rodarte
That was horrible. Moving on. Boom. It's just a different way to process it.
::Patrick McCalla
And when I'm giving you tools, they're.
::Tony Rodarte
Giving you tools. Yep. On how to not park in that unrest because.
::Patrick McCalla
That's that's.
::Tony Rodarte
Good. Keep moving.
::Patrick McCalla
Going back to what you said earlier, we as humans, we weren't designed to see and experience some of these things that you see and experience any of this, but much less a first responder. Yeah. So so this therapy is how do you get move past that?
::Tony Rodarte
Absolutely. And I think it's powerful to share that, too. So I'll tell you, in full disclosure, you talk about transparency. I don't know that I've ever publicly shared EMDR when I retired. I did now. And that's part of this.
::Tony Rodarte
If I'm serious about what we're trying to advocate for, people need to hear, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I'm serious about that. I went through it myself. The weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders.
::Tony Rodarte
In a way that I never felt before. And I need our men and women to know that that's okay. There are services out there that will absolutely help them unpack that trauma and what they saw. So yeah, how about me just sharing that for the first time here?
::Tony Rodarte
I realize that came out. I'm like, Well, we just got real good.
::Patrick McCalla
I love it. I'm glad you did. It's interesting. I was just recently I was on a trip up in Colorado and I met a guy who has a nonprofit up there. It's it's for veterans that are coming out and seen a lot of combat.
::Patrick McCalla
He was a marine that's in combat. But I don't know anything about what is it called? MDR.
::Tony Rodarte
MDR.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah, but he was doing he talked about that same thing. So they're doing, you know, equine therapy and some of AIDS. But MDR was one of the things that he was talking about, helping him get past the images.
::Patrick McCalla
Images? Yeah, in a lot of combat. So that's incredible. Kind of that's the professional help where I can't I'm your buddy. That's going to say, man, I got your back. I want to walk with you, but I can't walk you through that.
::Patrick McCalla
That's a professional. It needs to do that.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, that's the difference. I also want to overemphasize there's so much help and value. Just in help. Yes, just in. You reaching out? Yes. That may prevent somebody from taking their own life. Yeah. You just saying, look, I love you, dude.
::Tony Rodarte
I care about you. Let's go grab a coffee. Let's go grab a beer. Let's just have a conversation that's needed. Yeah, but to get past that, we need the professional help.
::Patrick McCalla
It's both. Yeah. How do you. This is one thing that I love about you in a little bit that I've gotten to know you. How do you still see? Good after seeing so much bad?
::Tony Rodarte
That's a great question. And I'm kind of unique. You know, we talked about church earlier. I've been blessed, dude. Like, I met my wife in 95 at our church at Central Central Christian. We got married in 98. I my daughter that I grew up in that church.
::Tony Rodarte
Our kids are dedicated there. We still are part of that church at church has been instrumental really in getting me through and a career that church and my wife Melody that one two punch allowed me to walk through this.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah.
::Patrick McCalla
She had a really strong support system.
::Tony Rodarte
Super, super strong support system. Not all men and women that are wearing that badge have that support system. So I'm one of the lucky ones and I don't take that for granted at all. I really don't.
::Patrick McCalla
I can tell just with your your and maybe some of it's your personality. But again, like you said, you've seen some of the most evil things you've experienced hands down. Like when you say people don't have any idea of the kind of evil that's walking around in our community, you actually know that firsthand.
::Patrick McCalla
Yeah, but I also see the side of you where you see a lot of good too. You look around, you see a lot of good that not letting that.
::Tony Rodarte
Taint, you know, and that comes back to my social circle. I had a group of people, I had an amazing church family. I have some really good friends, again, that aren't cops. A great social circle, an amazing wife.
::Tony Rodarte
Who didn't let me get too far deep into the chaos that I was seeing. Yeah. Made sure that they were there to maybe grabbed my arm, maybe pulled me back just a little bit, maybe engage a little bit longer in a conversation.
::Tony Rodarte
My fear is too many people don't have that and they go down that rabbit hole and they're too deep into it. And then there is no difference. The world is all bad. It's just evil. And I refuse to accept that.
::Tony Rodarte
to think that you watched the: ::Tony Rodarte
at. Well, I tend to avoid the: ::Patrick McCalla
Even on my social media feeds, I have found some like there's one on Instagram called Good News Movement. And it's one of the things I have in my feed and it's just they're just putting out the good things that are happening.
::Patrick McCalla
Like there is a lot of good there's evil, there's a lot of good. I think of that the day after that big shooting in Vegas years ago. Remember that? Where. So the day after that, I remember hearing on secular news stations all over, everybody's like going, how does this kind of evil happen?
::Patrick McCalla
And it is a it's a legitimate question. How can one guy do that? But then I remember thinking that next day. But did you miss the hundreds of people that were willing to lay down their lives to protect someone they don't even know?
::Patrick McCalla
The hundreds of people that were lined up to give blood, the hundreds of people that were bringing food to the families. I mean, so every time we see something evil, we also see a lot of good.
::Tony Rodarte
100%. And I don't care what the scenario is. We can we can look at any of these shootings. We can look at any of these mass casualty events. And you're going to find some good you're going to find some men and women that did some stellar acts.
::Tony Rodarte
And and a lot of them are going to be first responders, but not all of them. You're going to see parents. You're going to see grandparents that stepped up to the plate and saved additional lives and prevented your death count from being greater because of the actions that they took.
::Tony Rodarte
There is still good in this world. There's lots of good in this world. But are you willing to see that good?
::Patrick McCalla
Well, I tell you one thing I hope that comes out of this podcast is I certainly hope that people that are listening and myself included, that will have the name of one of those first responders or a family of a first responder and will reach out.
::Patrick McCalla
Like you said, we're not the professional help. Nope. But we can encourage them to maybe go, hey, check out. Give us the website again.
::Tony Rodarte
Compassion dash alliance. Dot org.
::Patrick McCalla
Yep. Check that out. But then also say if you ever need anything, I'm here. If you want to go grab a coffee or a beer. You know, like you said, I'm here because you said both of those are important.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, absolutely.
::Patrick McCalla
All of us can be this piece. I may not be able to be the professional piece, but all of us can be this piece. I hope that certainly comes out of this. Yeah. Yeah. Tony, thank you so much for what you do.
::Patrick McCalla
We got one more thing that we do, one more element.
::Tony Rodarte
So hopefully you're going to forget about that part where you'll be like, cut. Thank you. It's been fantastic.
::Patrick McCalla
No way. No way. Because it's the two truths in a lie. Do this with all of our guests at the end. And again, the irony of it is we call this podcast No Gray Areas. I'm going to ask you to lie to me, but the audience has gotten to know you for about 30 minutes, 40 minutes here
::Patrick McCalla
. We're going to see if you can trick us with this.
::Tony Rodarte
Too. Okay. There's a lot of pressure. Yeah. So, you know, after a career or during a career of just a lot of stress, you got to find your outlets. And truthfully, for me, one of those was skydiving. I wasn't in a position where I could do it, you know, monthly, but that was a way that I kind
::Tony Rodarte
of recharge my batteries, jump out, reset. Yeah. And I actually learned it from my wife, but that was one way that I could just kind of breathe and be like, You know what? I think the world is okay right now for a little bit.
::Tony Rodarte
Another thing I'd like to share is the Middle East is just very near and dear to my heart and I've had the opportunity to travel there probably a half dozen times. I love the culture, I love the food, I love the people.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, I will tell you some of the warmest God fearing people on the face of the planet come from within that region. And I can't wait to travel internationally again.
::Patrick McCalla
Okay.
::Tony Rodarte
And then the last thing I'd like to share is I. Have had the opportunity to have lunch with my daughter once a month. Since she was in kindergarten. And she's now a freshman in college. A 19 year old.
::Tony Rodarte
Oh. Non-negotiable. Yeah. Once a month.
::Patrick McCalla
You've made that. You've carved out that time. You've made that.
::Tony Rodarte
Well. Made it. Okay.
::Patrick McCalla
So let me let me I'm going to say number two is true. And I'm only saying that with the Middle East, your love for the Middle East, because I know the church you go to, well, they work closely with me and I know that near and dear to their heart.
::Patrick McCalla
So I'm going with that's a truth. I got nailed. I'm on a roll nailed. And then I want to believe the third one. So much so that I'm going to go. That's true. That for once a month since she was in kindergarten, you've gone on a date with your daughter.
::Tony Rodarte
You know how hard that would be to actually do. Yeah, true.
::Patrick McCalla
Man. So I. I got.
::Tony Rodarte
It. You nailed it, but.
::Patrick McCalla
You nailed it. More excited that the third one is true. There's a bunch of guys listening, I hope. Or women that are listening that will carve out time like that, that will that will have a generational impact. Yeah.
::Patrick McCalla
I'm proud of you for that, man.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah, that that's been a heck of a commitment. And I just want to share it just in 2 seconds. So I have 19 year old twins and I made that dedication when my kids were young and I had lunch with both of them.
::Tony Rodarte
And I tell them all the time, you can tap out when you need to tap out, my son. God bless him. He tapped out in second grade, kindergarten to second grade. I'm so sorry. My daughter. To this day, we are still doing it.
::Tony Rodarte
It's a non-negotiable. I will never break that. It's. It's awesome. And there were, you know, 11 years in a homicide unit. There were crazy times when it was super stressful to make it happen. But we made it happen.
::Tony Rodarte
Yeah. And as for skydiving, why would I jump out of a perfectly good plane? I don't think makes sense.
::Patrick McCalla
Well, yeah, that's true. I have a.
::Tony Rodarte
Couple. My wife, I love it.
::Patrick McCalla
So. So that part was true that she does. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Well, Tony, thank you so much. Thank you so much for what you do, the impact that you're having. Thanks for what you did in your career. Thank you for caring about people, your daughter, families.
::Patrick McCalla
I saw that. That really came through. So we appreciate you.
::Tony Rodarte
Thank you for the opportunity.
::Host
Thanks for listening to the No Gray Areas podcast to dove deeper into the story. Be sure to subscribe. Follow us on social media and check out no gray areas dot com.
