DEALING WITH HURT - Letting Go of Things that Hinder Us | Ep. 45 with Bill Bush
"Hurt people hurt people."
People are going to hurt you. The problem is, we still have to love them.
When we allow those things to hinder us, it affects our decisions and can lead to poor choices.
For example, the idea of "church hurt" can lead us to make the decision of leaving the church and Christ altogether.
How can we heal from those hurts, habits, and hang-ups? Bill Bush dives into those solutions and helps us embrace forgiveness.
The NO GREY AREAS platform is about the power, importance, and complexity of choices. We host motivating and informative interviews with captivating guests from all walks of life about learning and growing through our good and bad choices.
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Transcript
Speaker 1
Throw off everything that hinders and especially this in the tangles and run with endurance. I point out in that passes throw off everything that slows you down especially the Senate entangles. So it was like you realize what it's saying is not everything that slows you down is necessarily wrong or. So he's good. So we need to make a choice to run for the best.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And so what is it that's holding you back? And I go, and that goes.
::Speaker 2
To idea of good can be the enemy of great.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And I kind of share that. But then I said, but also it's not just all about a good thing that's hindering you. There's also a bad thing that hinders you that's not said. It's the things that other people have done to you. You didn't sin. And I spent a long that's the probably the part I spent the most time was that idea of.
::Speaker 2
The the the like the hurts habits hang up that like if somebody someone else. Yeah.
::Speaker 1
Because of someone else. And now guess what it's doing, it's slowing it down and we should probably put this in the we.
::Speaker 2
Should know we should, we should if this comes up. Yeah. Because it's really interesting. I was just telling are you ready. I've been recording this whole time. Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. That's awesome.
::Speaker 1
So we could actually cut some of that.
::Speaker 2
She's a master at doing that, then, like sneaking stuff in. That's hilarious. Welcome back to the No Gray Areas podcast. This week's guest, Billy Bush, is back with us. He's a friend of mine. He talks about the power of choices, the positive and negatives of that, leading ourselves through failures, forgiveness. But at the end, he gives this quote It's so good about the skin and heart.
::Speaker 2
You have to listen to understand what I'm talking about. Join us now Bill. BUSH Welcome back to the No Gray Areas podcast. You are one of only a few. I think we've only had two or three guests that are invited back. So that's that's big news. And do you remember last time we got together, we showed up and we both had the same exact clothes on.
::Speaker 2
Yes, we came. We came pretty close.
::Speaker 1
Pretty close.
::Speaker 2
Good thing I've long sleeved. You have short sleeves. Yeah. Yeah. I knew you were going to bring your big guns today, so I was going to cover my. No, I was going to cover my up. So. Hey, well, welcome back. So what we want to do this time is talk about the power of choice. And so, you know, the no gray area story is built around Joseph and Gagliano story, biggest sports scandal in history that they know of.
::Speaker 2
Two guys lost their careers, went to prison. It's a cautionary tale in a lot of ways. But what's interesting is that you and I, I think, have a similar belief system. Obviously, the power of choice is something makes us uniquely human, isn't it? So speaking to that a little bit.
::Speaker 1
Well, even like the sports illustration there, like, you know, Vince Lombardi once, you know, his most one of his most famous quotes is like I'm paraphrasing it here is any man's greatest moment is when he pauses hard out for a good cause and then lies on the the field of battle and victorious. Most people don't read the whole quote.
::Speaker 1
That's always what's put on that picture. He's actually not referring to just football. He was giving a speech and he was talking about his faith and yeah, yeah. Many times I believe in God. I believe in this decency. And he was trying to say that you have a choice to make. And the choice is, are you going to give your give your heart for this cause?
::Speaker 1
Are you going to go all in? And. Yeah, and that's the nice thing about that power of a choice is even if it's hard, if you've made a choice and it's something that really is, like you said, the positive side of choices, it's the good choice. Yeah. Even if it's hard, you get to you get to sit there knowing that there was a victory even in the in the hard things like in the military, they say embrace the suck.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. Which means there's something good on the other side of this, but getting there might not be fun. And I think that.
::Speaker 2
One of our other repeat guests was a 21 year Navy SEAL. And he said that's like one of their almost every day their training. They all are saying that to each other.
::Speaker 1
Embrace the suck. Well, you know, I was raised by a military veteran of three wars. And so I heard that all the time. I feel like I was a Navy SEAL. The way I was raised probably learned.
::Speaker 2
Yes, I can relate.
::Speaker 1
You might want to the hour. The Bush family motto was, do hard things. Really? Yes. So it was I heard that my whole life embraced. That is what raised the suck. And when you make a choice, there's a power. Because because in other words, what my dad used to say and I think it's I don't know, he probably still for someone else because I think it's a pretty well-known statement.
::Speaker 1
But he would say because then you make your choices and then your choices make you wait.
::Speaker 2
Say that again.
::Speaker 1
He said, you make your choices and then your choices make you see.
::Speaker 2
That's what this bill that's so great. This is what we needed one year ago. That's what this whole podcast is about, that to like even young people, to help young people understand those choices. You make it 17, 18, 22. They're going to follow you through the rest of your life. Now, we'll come to the hope side of that, too.
::Speaker 2
But you make the choices and then the choices make you. That's what your dad.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And he would say do hard things because if you choose to every day do hard things in the right direction, if you'll do the hard things then normal things become easy things and then easier things become celebrations. Yeah. And, and he did, he said you got to think with the end in mind, like he used to describe back when we grew up.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. The phone didn't say turn right, go left. If you tried to find something, you had to actually use a map. And remember, if you were going to go somewhere on a map for like this, these topographical, well, they when you use the maps and then you see the map underneath it, but you could usually ignore it because it tells you what to do.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, well, when you actually pulled out an old fashioned map before you went anywhere, you actually had to find where you're going first and then kind of trace back. And there might be multiple ways. And then you're looking at it. I remember someone is like, Well, this, this seems faster. Yeah. And so you're trying to make the best possible choice to get to to get to where you want.
::Speaker 1
And so a lot of people there struggle with choices is they don't start with the end in mind. Yeah. And that's where the, the theological end of this question was. God kind of separate us from all other creation and that we have a free will, we have a choice. And and the problem with choice is if he's going to give us the freedom of choice, he also allows a world that has the consequences of those choice.
::Speaker 2
And every listener, every human being, this man on this planet has faced the consequences of choices. Even other people's right.
::Speaker 1
Yes.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, yes. So so let let's just really quick before we go to the negative side, the positive side, I love that you brought that up. The positive side is this is one of the things that that is unique about humans like we're not animals. We don't run on instinct. No. That we we create in the image of God have the power of choice.
::Speaker 2
That's a positive thing, right?
::Speaker 1
Yes, I believe I think that's positive. Well, because I think, like you said, yes, it's it's not just running on inside, because if we really are, I see some inconsistencies in in the world. Yeah. And when they they on one end, they say we're basically just like an animal. We have instinct, we have things, we have needs, we have this.
::Speaker 1
But on the other end, we know that if we just say that we also have a justice system, we have laws, we have things that we that we're saying, oh, wait, you have to be held accountable for your decisions. Well, which one is which one is that? Are we are we just animals that don't have choice, that we're just a we're just acting out that innate DNA built into US programing.
::Speaker 1
So at that point, then you can't hold me accountable for this. And that's a lot. I've seen the argument for a while, just, you know, that's just boys being boys and that's just whatever. And it's like, no, no, God created us with that world because we're in his image now. I know with with the fall and sin and all that image I described, it's like we're a mirror that's supposed to reflect God.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. The mirror's been broke and we should just up. So, so, so in with you look at a cracked, broken mirror. You'll see some of it. But it gets warped, it gets distorted. Some things aren't exactly right. And and so, you know, we live in a world where we can make choices. God gave us a right to make choices.
::Speaker 1
And we can actually make really good choices because Jesus made a choice. Yeah. And Jesus went to the cross and he says, Hey, if we put our faith back in Jesus, he can put that mirror back together for us and he can give us the power of the Holy Spirit. And so that's why when Paul says, hey, when, when, when, when you said There's grace, and then, you know, the world way of thinking, well, if there's always grace, when we said, Why don't we just do whatever we want?
::Speaker 1
And he's like, May never be. Yeah, which I think the rough English translation is, hell no, that's I think it really is. I think he said it really.
::Speaker 2
Is bold as he could say.
::Speaker 1
It. He goes, That's stupid. Why would Jesus die to save us from a life that we're just going to go right back into? Yeah. And so, but what he says is with the spirit, it's power. We can actually now make incredible choices if we surrender to him and trust him. Yeah. So the positive side there is. But yet God gives us freedom.
::Speaker 1
The positive side of choices. Everyone thinks if we're just an animal, an insane or a robot, that would be the other downside. If I'm just a robot, that guy's just playing a massive chess game with me and there's no choice. There's there's no freedom in that. But the beauty of it is, if if you really know the word of God and you know the freedom you have, a lot of people try to blame their bad choices on God's will.
::Speaker 1
Mm hmm. And it's usually just the bad burrito they ate the night before. And the reality is, God makes his his his evident will. His declared will very clear in Scripture. Yeah. And I think if you are living out his what I'm doing his purposes, I'm loving him back, I'm listening to his word. I am. I'm being an active part of what it means to be a disciple maker.
::Speaker 1
And he says and part of as well as you're going to suffer if you go the right road, you're going to have to embrace the suck is what he says. And he goes, Because I suffered. You're going to suffer, Paul. It it's like if you're doing it right, there's going to be a cost. Yeah. You're going to count your cost and pick up your cross.
::Speaker 1
If you look through all the things, the things that are clear in scripture of what it means to follow him, and you are doing that. And you face a decision. You face a choice. It's not just praying. Try to get a feeling. It's like I would look at those two choices and say, Does any of these violate my ability to be a disciple and follower of Christ?
::Speaker 1
And then if the answer is no, then I go, Is any of them actually going to be better in knowing how God wired me? That's why we should know our spiritual guess. We should know our calling because then you can make that choice. On the positive side, it's not just about Did I violate something God said is what is one of them actually show?
::Speaker 1
That's the best use of how God put me together. And if it's a if it's a clear tie, if it's a clear either do there is no clear clarity in scripture. I think the beauty of choice is God says, have fun, do the one you want.
::Speaker 2
Don't you think that a lot of times because you've had many, many people come to you for counsel on this I have over the years to how do you know the will of God or how you know? And a lot of times when they say, I've been praying about it and I often will tell them, you know, John, ten, ten says, my sheep hear my voice.
::Speaker 2
God created communication. He has no problem telling you what he needs you to know. So often. I wonder if God's simply saying either one is okay, like choose. Well, I created you with the power of choice. And so sometimes you'll clearly say, don't do this based on moral leadership. Sometimes he'll give us guidance with with other people. But a lot of times I do think that God is saying you have the power of choice.
::Speaker 1
Choose. Well, and that's the beauty of it. I mean, from a leadership point of view, when it comes to choice, one of the things I was thinking about and this, the next thing we're going to talk about, because I've ran into a lot. I've been traveling in over in Europe, in the U.K., a lot, talking with pastors and really just listening, because they don't want me to just fly over there and say, here's how to do it.
::Speaker 1
You know, they don't like that. So I don't think anybody likes to be honest. It's like I woke up this morning, I hope someone will come to me and say, You're doing it wrong and here's how to do it. Yes, but in listening, I've noticed not just there now I'm noticing it back. Even in our staff when I'm helping people navigate some choices is it seems to me that there's obviously when we're saying there's our choices that are either right or wrong, there is either this or that.
::Speaker 1
But I'm noticing a lot of leadership. That nuance of choice is they're making an either or decision out of something. That's both. And let me give example, like over over in England, they kind of have this belief that is that that, you know, the church is only 2% of the people go to church in the Bible church. Well, I've met with some pastors that their churches are growing, they're doing well, but they got this older building.
::Speaker 1
It only holds like two, 300 people and they put an artificial lid on reach because they say, well, we're too big, so we're going to start another church, which is a great idea. So they raise up a guy and then they go a ways away and they try. But it's so hard to get churches started. They're so complex and complicated.
::Speaker 1
So this guy's going to go and probably have 50 people at his church and that's what they want to do. And I think that's a great thing to do. Go get another church started. But the issue is they'll only have one service at their church. And I go, So how many service you have? Oh, we only do one.
::Speaker 1
I go, It seems to me if you're already growing, you've got a good team. Here is things are going on. I think starting another service with the same team in the same location is both financially more responsible and you will reach more people quicker than you would. But they have this idea that that's like it's another church and we've divided the church.
::Speaker 1
I go, Isn't planting of the church? Yeah. I go, Well, have you ever considered that? Okay, if you think that way, just think you have two churches in the same building. And I'm but.
::Speaker 2
They were going with the either.
::Speaker 1
Or it's either or it's either you plant churches or you would have another service. Yeah. And they think the other service they feel it's not right. So yeah I get it. They've made it but, but I don't agree with that but I get it. But, but it just got me thinking and I kept running into we.
::Speaker 2
Do that as humans.
::Speaker 1
But that's why I got thinking about how many times I worry I'm in a meeting and someone says, Well, we got to do this. Or I go, Is it really that or that? Yeah. There are certain times when it's the choice you have. Might be a both and yeah, we but I think we get really black and white all the time on, on stuff like that's why we have to say God's will is I need to know every decision when it's like, you know, God didn't tell you every he gave you his moral will.
::Speaker 1
He gave you what he expects us to do, his clear will on what we should be living like. And then other than that filter every choice you have through that.
::Speaker 2
So so let me ask you this, because this is interesting. We could spend a lot of time philosophically and theologically that what you just said, where you were talking about the positive side, where if you I love what you said. If you look around at the world, you'll see that almost every society has laws. Yeah. Which indicates that none of these societies actually believe what many of them say, which is that we're just humans going on instinct because you actually are expecting people to make choices based on the law code with so fascinating we could spend a lot of time philosophically on that.
::Speaker 2
But let's jump into the negative side of choice. So there's a positive what's the negative side of the power of choices that we have as humans?
::Speaker 1
Well, the the negative side is we have the capacity to make really terrible decisions. And and like I said, and like we already started with a lot of times the biggest mistake there is, is we don't make a decision with the end in mind. And a lot of times because we don't have our enemy, we don't understand our purpose would answer.
::Speaker 1
We'd go. And so I think the most negative is when we just make decisions. If they say in the heat of the moment, we just we try to make the decision that gets us to the best place, the fastest. And and so like what we think is the best place the fastest.
::Speaker 2
Yeah.
::Speaker 1
Like God often wants to take us on the scenic route and we want the super highway. Yeah, I want the autobahn. I want the where I could go as fast as I want and then we're.
::Speaker 2
Just cruise control on our. Yeah it's 20 miles and.
::Speaker 1
Then just go and I think when we don't think about it we end up making some poor choices and like and like that either or thinking it's kind of like what I said, like in Hebrews Chapter 12 is talking about we have this great cloud of witnesses, the Faith Hall of Fame. They lived by faith. And he says, okay, well, therefore, if we're going to live out this life of faith, which is choices like we need to make some choices, and it says the first part is it says we need to throw off anything that hinders.
::Speaker 1
But then it says and especially the sin that actually tangles us and trips us.
::Speaker 2
We were talking about this before with my son. Dig into that a little bit because I thought I think that's really interesting. There's a reason you're saying that the writer.
::Speaker 1
Yeah.
::Speaker 2
Makes that distinction. What is.
::Speaker 1
That? Why does he put that comma and especially is is because what he's saying is there's things that will hinder us that are not necessarily wrong. They're not sin. Yeah. So there are choices that you didn't just, okay, God's mad at you, you send it's like, are you making the best choice? Like and there's some things that are you're choosing good over great as you said and.
::Speaker 2
Yeah good can become the.
::Speaker 1
Enemy and that's fine with this because we can just settle for good and really when we settle for good, I think we need to add another word to that. You think you're selling for good, you're just really settling for good enough?
::Speaker 2
Yeah, good.
::Speaker 1
Enough. And you miss Great in that choice. And that's especially if you make it either or thinking all the time.
::Speaker 2
And yet sometimes that settling for that is because it goes back to what you said earlier. Right. Because it's the easier way we settle for good or good enough because it's easy and we're not embracing the shock of life.
::Speaker 1
Well, yeah, I always say brings us to when I'm talking to people that are single or single again and they really want to be in a relationship. But a lot of them make a choice to say, instead of trying to find Mr. or Mrs. Right, they settle for Mr. or Mrs. Right here. And that's yes, that's kind of the negative side of the choice because it's not just there's a clear right.
::Speaker 1
Right. And then a lot of people just say, why doesn't God just tell every decision clear, right or wrong? But that's kind of an immature view. Like when you're a kid and your dad, there's rules and he says, Hey, here's why. When your parents really establish those rules because they want you to get the character and heart behind them.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. But at first you don't get it. But you're you should grow up at first you like if you're going to follow mom or dad. Remember, I had a older sister and there were so many times that if she wanted to do something I wanted to do, think it'd be more like, Well, Dad said, we can't do that.
::Speaker 1
Dad said, We need to do this. We're not supposed to do that. We're supposed to do this. And that's kind of.
::Speaker 2
The same siblings.
::Speaker 1
Yes. It's like it's like a title exactly where they're all the same as kids. But how many of us stay that way in our relationship to the world and to God as an adult? Mm hmm. When I when to say this would be a good choice to make and this would be like, well, where in the Bible to say, I have to do that?
::Speaker 1
Yeah, we're going to be able to just say, I can't do this. I'm like, You're still in a child. Like, it's like, give me the clear. Either this or that and prove to me otherwise. I'm like, Yeah, but sometimes there's choices that, yeah, there's you're not wrong. God's not going to say you're a sinner, but.
::Speaker 2
You just chose good.
::Speaker 1
You realize it's going to hold you back. It's going to it's going to hold Trent's. It's a sin actually. Knock you down. Yeah. These type of choices just slow you down. Yeah.
::Speaker 2
And so one knocks you down.
::Speaker 1
One slows, yeah, one knocks you down, one slows you down. And this and one of the ones is not just choosing good over great is a lot of times the thing that hinders us is it's not good in our life, but it wasn't anything we did wrong. Yeah. I think the biggest thing that it's saying to deal with is, is the hurts we have what other people have done because we are hurt.
::Speaker 1
We're all hurting people and hurt people. Hurt people. Yeah. And so so you end up with this hurt and a lot of times people are slowed down in their faith because of the choice someone else made. But now you're making a choice to settle for that.
::Speaker 2
You know, so, so really quick, because there's not a single listener who's not dealing with what you're saying. Yeah. All of us have been hurt. Yes. Even even sometimes. I mean, I've told my kids, you're not going to be in counseling someday, in spite of me. It's going to be because of me. No matter how well any parent does, there's going to be something they did or accidentally said or whatever that hurt their kid.
::Speaker 2
All of us have hurts. This is what you're saying? All of us have hurts because of someone else.
::Speaker 1
Yes, I believe that's true, because we all are hurting.
::Speaker 2
I agree.
::Speaker 1
And and I think that's kind of one of the the buzzwords out there now is people are starting to realize there's a lot of people that have church hurt. And it's this idea that they say this church kind of chewed me up. And what they usually mean is they're not saying some organizations shoot them up, even though they might blame this this particular church.
::Speaker 1
They chewed me up. If you really hear their story, it's somebody or some people, it's one, it's a group or and a lot of times it's just one individual. And they feel like either if they're in like a pastor, like they abused their power, they manipulated they were didn't really there's there's all kinds of ways people have been hurt all the way to stuff that's really, really dark and wrong.
::Speaker 1
And and what I've realized is when he says the things that will hinder you, a lot of people that have there's a lot of people sitting in my church each week that they're in this church because they got hurt somewhere else.
::Speaker 2
Yeah.
::Speaker 1
And what I say, hey, I'm glad you're here, but if you expect no one to ever disappoint you or hurt you, you're just going to keep making this choice overnight until you either, A, decide to throw off that which hinders or you're just going to leave the church altogether. Yeah. And so what I see is a lot of people that they got hurt enough that they'll leave a church or leave the scenario.
::Speaker 1
And, and they're right. They didn't sin, but now they're letting it stop. Well, you know what? I'm really not going to get into community because it was in my small group that I got hurt. So I'm just going to sit in church or I'm not going to serve because when I served, they took advantage of me. All right.
::Speaker 1
So what basically you're doing is like saying you're hitting you're not going forward because you're holding on. It's an anchor is what it is. It's an anchor that you're dragging around. And how do you you got to deal with that? Because the choices you're making now, now is, yeah, you're not sitting, but you're now hindered. And if a hinders you long enough, you can't be.
::Speaker 1
So you could start. Stop listening to God altogether. But as it slows you down from doing that, you're going to go, What do I do to unchain myself?
::Speaker 2
So, so, yeah, let's get into that. So what does what would you recommend? What you're saying and I agree 100% with you, is all of us as human beings have hurts in our life because of other people. Like we've obviously done things, poor choices that are hurting us because of our own choices. But all of us have hurts because of someone else.
::Speaker 2
Most, if not all, that are listening, that are part of a faith community or a church have hurts because of a church as well. Yeah. And if we're not careful, those hurts will end up hindering us. So what do we do with those? What's what's the solution?
::Speaker 1
Everyone just needs to be perfect.
::Speaker 2
Great, great.
::Speaker 1
And the part that most people know, I believe that that that that there are some steps that need to be take you you got to deal with you can't just let it keep dragging because I think eventually those types of hindrances, the anchor eventually will knock you you'll fall over due to exhaustion and you'll just you'll now fall in the dragging around.
::Speaker 1
You will now fall into the flat out. Now, I'm just going to not do what God says all together. I'm just going to avoid it. I'm going to keep and then I keep thinking that I have the okay to do this because of what was done to me. Yeah. And then a lot of times it's repeatable cycles. People end up turning around and doing exactly what they didn't appreciate.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. Like abuse cycles in that way.
::Speaker 2
And then I've often said you become what you hate. Yeah. A kid that grows up, an alcoholic home says, I will never be like my dad. And what happens statistically, most often they become just like their dad. That's what you're.
::Speaker 1
Saying, right? Well, yeah, well, because it's like my son when we were younger, we were out on clubs driving around and he was like, he was just big enough to drive his own. But where we were at had a lot of cactus and he had fallen into cactus before. So he was just like freaked out by the cactus and he was dead.
::Speaker 1
I'm afraid I'm going to hit cactus. And later I go, It's not that hard. Just steer away from it, man. Just keep your eyes, stay on the trail and don't worry about it. Here's the problem he ended up wiping out in the cactus. You know why? Because he kept looking at the cactus. He was so afraid of hitting the cactus that it is riding on the trail.
::Speaker 1
He kept staring at the cactus and there's a lot of human beings. It's the same law on why. If you're on a family road trip through beautiful country, it's it really stinks to be the driver because you don't get to see us. You got to.
::Speaker 2
Focus on.
::Speaker 1
Because if you start looking at what they're looking at, you're going to everyone's going to get a really, really, really up close look at it. Yes. Because you you we naturally move towards what we stare at. Yeah. So I think when we stare at the hurt, we can't get past it. And many times we end up becoming the same thing.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, we end up becoming the cactus that we're afraid of and, and we got to snap out of that cycle. We got to get away from that. We got to, you know, and one of the things we need to do is, first of all, well, to help people, first of all, that the bad answer when it comes to like church art is to say a church didn't hurt you, a person did.
::Speaker 1
If a pastor says that I like to use one of our core values is throw pine drop punch. You know the tough truth that the right time, the right time in the right way? Well, if a pastor says that, I almost think you should just punch him right in the face, not in.
::Speaker 2
The throat, but in the face.
::Speaker 1
Right in the face, because that guy doesn't understand what the church is.
::Speaker 2
Now, if we get some emails or something. Yeah, someone did that.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. We are not liable. We are technically not liable for this.
::Speaker 2
So I'm to bill Bush at.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, no, no, no, no. Don't do that. That that would be rough. But no, but what I'm saying is, is if you got hurt in a church by someone, we are the church. Yeah.
::Speaker 2
And so it's a cop out.
::Speaker 1
And so if we are the church, we're also a team. Yeah. Just like the military. Embrace the suck. We're on a journey. God talks a lot about the one another's. So I think what we need to do to get past those hurts is the primary thing is to let it go. We need to offer forgiveness. And a lot of people out there listening right now goes, you're ridiculous because you misunderstood.
::Speaker 1
You heard something I didn't say. You thought that when I said we need to forgive is you said all I need to say. It's okay. Stay go back into a dysfunctional relationship. No boundaries, just forget about it. Let them off the hook. All of those things reconcile. And I go, Rhett, forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing now.
::Speaker 1
You can't have reconciliation without forgiveness, but you can have forgiveness without reconciliation.
::Speaker 2
Such an important thing to understand.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, reconciliation takes to forgiveness takes one. If I'm going to forgive a hurt that was happening that that other person has no interest in, it's there's nothing that can be done about. Maybe that's even someone who's dead now. Yeah. You're still chained to that anger when you let it go. You're not letting them off the hook. You're letting yourself off the hook and you're going, I'm going to stop staring at this.
::Speaker 1
I'm going to stop being way down and slow down by this. I'm going to choose with the power of God to say, God, I choose to forgive this. And the problem is that's really difficult. Yeah, it's extremely difficult. And that's why we need other people. Yeah. That's where the church can be. The positive end of this. So you're running away from the thing that caused the problem by running away from the thing that fixes the problem.
::Speaker 1
Now it's the same thing like if you got food poisoning and so you're just hurling for a few days and you are so sick. The answer to the food poisoning is not to say I'm never eating again. Yes. Now you don't want to eat that same food. Yeah, for a while. But you're going to eat. Yeah. And we need we need the church.
::Speaker 1
We need people in our lives.
::Speaker 2
No wonder it's no wonder when Peter asks Jesus, how many times should we forgive?
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And they said, Yeah, yeah, infinitely, infinitely.
::Speaker 2
Because in some ways Peter's question was directed as most of us as humans are not understanding what forgiveness is exactly. If we understand what forgiveness is, what you're saying is, it's not that I'm letting that person off the hook. It's not that I'm it's it's I'm letting go of that chain that's going to show. So that's why Jesus saying, well, infinitely know.
::Speaker 2
Of course you say it because you've been forgiven.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And then if by chance you're blessed that this person comes around and someone seeks you out and wants to make amends, you've already dealt with that in your heart. Yeah. And you could probably look at them and you're actually blessed instead of PTSD when they come back and say that you almost feel violated again sometimes if they seek amends and and, but if you've already done it, you've already paved the way on your end.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And then there may be, could be records. I'm not saying it ever has to happen, but there could be. And you don't know. But you don't need to. You can put a boundary boundaries. Forgiveness does not mean taking out every boundary. Yeah, because even if someone does say, someone does say I'm sorry, a lot of times, even the way we do forgiveness, the first place is I can forgive you and say I forgive you, but I still don't trust you, you know, because that's the other thing.
::Speaker 1
Forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. You can offer forgiveness in a moment. Trust takes time. Yeah. And trust can be destroyed again like that. And that's kind of like why in getting help. So I say, hey, offer forgiveness, talk to the Lord first. You might need to talk to a counselor. Also, you might need people, you might need someone in the church.
::Speaker 1
And we actually have a program, I think you said you wanted to talk about it.
::Speaker 2
Celebrate recovery. Yeah, love it. Your church has that here. So celebrate recovery there. A little tagline is hurts habits and hang ups. Everybody has Hertz habits, hang ups. It's not just because a lot of times when people go to those kind of programs, they think it's about addictions. And I think it is. But they think of chemical addictions, but celebrate recovery is saying know all of us as human beings have hurts and habits and hang ups.
::Speaker 2
So, Bill, why do you have that? Why is that still part of what you guys do at your church and why are you part of it? Like what? You because you're you're actually part of it. You go and no, you're not in.
::Speaker 1
I'm on the teaching rotation and I, I went through it. I did the 12 steps. That's part of the reason is years ago when we were going to start the program in our church, I was familiar with it and all that. But I go, Hey, this is kind of a serious program. I wanted to understand it because they say that for these types of programs, because you will attract some people that are kind of like, you know, a little extra love needed because they are broken.
::Speaker 1
And and a lot of churches get scared when they have. We say we want to reach the most broken of people, but I think we really like reaching what we call suburbia centers. Yeah, they're functional centers like a functional alcoholic. Yeah, they got sick, but their life hasn't collapsed in on itself.
::Speaker 2
So they get out and go to work. You know.
::Speaker 1
They're not as weird to you. And but if you go after the people that have like the, you know, the basketball has hit the ground. Yeah. So now it can come back up. Maybe it can be uncomfortable. Yeah. And they say it never works if the pastor doesn't believe in it. So I said I want to understand it.
::Speaker 1
I knew that the 12 steps, the biblical, that that's what scares you. It's a pathway that takes scripture and has a biblical pathway of how do you get past hurts habits and hang ups. Yeah. And it really comes out of like second Timothy three when it says all scripture is is is breed by God, it's inspired by God.
::Speaker 1
It is for the teaching, the rebuking and the training of righteousness. If you really take those verses of right, it says that God's word can be used to show you what's wrong. Yeah, it gives you the throw punches. Says this you put your life up next to this. Oh, yeah. Oh, I get it. And then it says that not only shows you wrong, it says, and here's how to get it right.
::Speaker 1
And then it also says, and here's how to keep it right. Here's how to have endurance and stay on the path. And that's really what some recovery it's this this pathway that helps you, you know, learn that reality is always your friend. Yeah. Most people don't want to hear reality. That's why they get stuck. It's like reality is always your friend.
::Speaker 1
So if you don't, if you run away from the truth, you run away from people. You weren't afraid from God's word, and you let that hinder you. Those hurts hinder you, maybe trip you up completely. And that's what a lot of people do. The reason we like C are because it does addictions. A lot of people that have starts with hurt that they didn't do yes ends with horrible addiction that now they're choosing.
::Speaker 1
Yep yep. And and it's this pathway that's down. We need a pathway out. And so what I did was I wanted to stay in it. So I had a friend that had been through it and I'd walked next to him when he had grown up in a Christian that I'd been serving in the church, and some of his old demons came back to haunt him.
::Speaker 1
And he ended up in a, you know, in an inpatient facility. And then he invited me to be his kind of his his co sponsor guy. And I heard his story when he got his graduate mission kind of time. And and so I invited him when we were starting this to take me through the 12 steps. Yeah. And he says, I'm only doing it if you take it serious.
::Speaker 1
And so we met one on one, so I would not be worried about other people. Yeah. And usually if you go straight through, as you know, six to maybe eight months to get all the way through the the step study, so to speak, they call it this these workbooks and stuff. There's one thing you have to do a an inventory where you have to be ruthlessly reality is your friend.
::Speaker 1
You got to be brutally honest. And most people drop out at that point. It's not they don't mind hearing the truth part. It's when you got to look in the mirror part. Yeah, that's the number one place. That's where 50% of the people drop right then. And it's because they just don't want to look at it. They don't want reality to be their friend.
::Speaker 1
And, you know, he looked at mine and even though I didn't really have a hang up or whatever I learned in the process, he made me redo mine for like five straight weeks. Really. We talked about he was this is good stuff. But he goes, I think you can feel this back further. So it took me over a year to get through this and I realized that I didn't even go in there with an obvious hurt.
::Speaker 1
I didn't have a hang up or a habit. And yet it still revealed to me little insecurities. It actually revealed one person that I had kind of slowly harbored something that I owed them an apology. It was the dumbest thing. And I emailed them. I am sorry that this happened and you.
::Speaker 2
Choosing to be brutally honest with.
::Speaker 1
Your. Yeah, but you had to be Brianna. You just had to be. And it's like I say, this is one of my soapboxes I just said again this last week, I guys, you may not like what I'm saying, but as long as what I'm saying is what God's word says, we need to welcome it because I'm called to lead a church.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And in Timothy, also, Paul told Timothy is a young pastor and he's near the end. He goes, Hey, I fought the good fight. And he says, when he right before he says, Hey, you got it. This is what the Word of God is good for. He says, Because, you know, there's going to come a time that people are going to surround themselves with people that just say what they want to hear.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And the hardest part of helping people through this is you need to say not what they want to hear, but what they need to hear.
::Speaker 2
Well, and that goes back. That's such an important point of choice, right? Because if we talk about there's a positive and a negative side of choice or the negative side of choice is going to keep reaping the negative effects of that in our life until we have this reality check and really confront. Like, this is really a poor choice I made, or this is really something that someone did to me.
::Speaker 2
But until we come to that point, you're saying we're really not going to.
::Speaker 1
Well, yeah. What I'm trying to say is I got to look in the mirror for myself as a leader. This trying to help people, trying to point people to Jesus by loving them like Jesus, trying to help them get past the hurts, habits and hang ups. Yeah, because if you get stuck with this hurt, you're going to develop some bad habits.
::Speaker 1
Yep. Like focusing on it, looking at it, you know, and then some of those habits, you know, are going to get you're going to get hung up on them and they're going to turn to addictions. Yeah. And people think of addictions as drugs, alcohol, that yeah. There's sex addictions, there's, there's, but there's like avoidance of reality addictions. There's some people it's like, you know, the Lord of the Rings, the precious ring.
::Speaker 1
It destroys you. But it has this power to make you say, My precious and a lot of people, that's their hurt. And it's like, Well, we have to love you. I care for you when you hurt. I really do. And a lot of us we meet people were there at we need to Jesus met people were that and he didn't care where he had to go to meet them.
::Speaker 1
Yep. Yep. The problem is he didn't leave any of them there. Yes. In less they chose to stay.
::Speaker 2
That's the beauty of it, isn't it?
::Speaker 1
And so we need to go meet people that we hug and we love that. But at some point, my encouragement to anyone trying to lead someone through, through hurt, through decisions and even decisions made to them, not even their own choices. Choices that were made towards them is reality. Is your friend. Yeah. And holding on that. Yeah. Like a any bad choice whether it was done to you or you're doing yourself is it may feel good.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, but you got to see yourself from my point of view.
::Speaker 2
Well that's a process too isn't it. I know. A quick story, a friend of mine, his his daughter was killed by her boyfriend. Murdered by his her her boyfriend. And it it put him in a spiral. In fact, addictions that were ruining his life. But now every year on that anniversary that she was murdered, he takes a picture of that guy that murdered her, and he goes out and he and he in this is just signifying that he's he's letting it go.
::Speaker 2
But he can't it's not a one time thing. You know, every year he has to do that and he burns the picture, you know, sense of saying, like, I'm letting this go. I'm not going to hang on to this. This isn't going to be the anchor. And that's what we often do, isn't is we're dragging. That's what you're saying is like precious.
::Speaker 2
We're dragging that around. We won't let it go.
::Speaker 1
And I like what you said there because some people heard what I saying, let it go means you can't have a moment like that. There is an idea of endurance. This isn't a one and done thing. Yeah, we have to repeatedly do it because we can get sucked back in. You can get and even the Hebrews pass. I said, you know, the things that hinder and this and that entangles, but then it says and run this race with endurance.
::Speaker 1
It's interesting that word endurance. It's like this word I've been fascinated with is grit. Yeah. I love and and and yet and and what is it is it everyone thinks grit is when you see a guy about to do a max bench press pilot and they're like slapping themselves in the face. Yeah, yeah. And they're getting all motivated and they're good.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And football teams, they get it when they go around and they do all the chant, you know, that serves a purpose.
::Speaker 2
Yes.
::Speaker 1
It gets you hyped, but it only gets you hype for a moment.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, that's not grit.
::Speaker 1
Motivation can get you to start anything but that upfront motivation. It's like rocket fuel. It burns fast, it's powerful, but it runs out quick. Yep. And we're not supposed to live our lives on rocket fuel. And in other words, you know, I can't believe Denzel Washington actually gave a speech on this. He said, motivation will get you to start anything.
::Speaker 1
Consistency and endurance is the only thing that'll help you finish it.
::Speaker 2
And that's what grit is.
::Speaker 1
That's great. Is that consistently enduring and even even.
::Speaker 2
And what you're saying, though, Bill, is you're connecting that back to forgiveness. Yeah. Or letting things go. It takes some grit, especially if we've been deeply wounded by something.
::Speaker 1
And there might be a moment that'll trigger something. And your feelings want to go down, your thoughts want to go down. The Bible says we can take your thought captive. And I was trying to explain this to my wife. Well, because she's something she would get stuck in these thoughts and she goes, how do you get you seem to be on a trance.
::Speaker 1
I go, I take the thought captive. She goes, How do you do that? It sounds it's we overcomplicate sometimes we overcomplicate what the Bible saying. Sometimes, for example, we just the solution is actually more obvious than we think. For example, in my in my green room before I go out to preach, there's a two TVs. One actually shows the service.
::Speaker 1
That's the stuff I need to see. The other one was originally going to be used for something else, but it was never used for it. But they're the exact same type of Roku TVs, so there's one remote. So when I go in to turn on the one I need to turn on, it'll turn them both on. And the other one has this annoying bright light and it's useless.
::Speaker 1
So I've devised a system. I realize if I walk up and I point just towards the sensor away from the other TV, I can do that. So I've been doing this for two years since we moved into the building. I go up there and I'm like, Oh, and I have to turn. So then you got to do the other.
::Speaker 1
You got to turn off funky to get the other one off. Yeah. And turn the other one on. And so just a couple of weeks ago my, I had a guy in there and he goes, I need the wrong you're just ready. I'll turn on. I go, No, don't do that. You hit the button and turn the both on him like so I explained them the whole process.
::Speaker 1
You'll see what you got to do is you got to do this. And when I walked up to lean to turn to turn the one useless one off. It's the first time two years I've been doing this. I looked and right in between both TV's mental right at my level is where they're both plugged in. Unplug Plug.
::Speaker 2
One.
::Speaker 1
All I did was unplug the one that was useless and tuck it into the wall. Yep, I got the answer so simple when it says Take a thought captive. What I told my wife about how I take that captive is when it starts to take over, I just say, no, that's not true. Yeah, I don't care how I feel.
::Speaker 1
See, we try to let feelings lead and we try to herd feelings. I go trying to control feelings. It's trying to china herd.
::Speaker 2
Cats and cats.
::Speaker 1
Yeah I think grit is learning how to ignore the feelings that's telling you a lot.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
::Speaker 1
How do you just don't listen to that feeling and you speak truth to the lie? And I literally. I don't care. I say it out loud. I told my wife, I just say it out loud. I go, This is not true and this is and I'm not going to sit here and I go find something else to do.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And that sounds basically simple. You keep doing that? Yeah. It's like weightlifting.
::Speaker 2
Yeah.
::Speaker 1
When you first work out like this, dumbbell feels so heavy. Yeah, but you keep doing it, and then when it starts to get light, you pick up the next one, you pick up the next, goes back.
::Speaker 2
To the consistency.
::Speaker 1
And then over years you make anyone workout. You don't feel like anything's changed, but you look back, you. That's why they take those before and after pictures. It's why you can look at them. That's the other way. I help get past it. I compare. I look at where I am, but where it was. I go, Why would I want to go back to that?
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And honest truth is the downside of decisions and the fact that even though if we know Christ we're a new creation, there's still the shadow of our old self that whispers. Sometimes we just are run in that race and we fall flat on our face. Yeah. And I like how John Maxwell it's a leadership principle, but I think it applies to all life.
::Speaker 1
He it he wrote a book called Failing Forward. He's like everyone falls down, smart people pick something up. Why they're down there. Yep.
::Speaker 2
Yep.
::Speaker 1
Instead of rolling around and crying, go, oh, look at that. I think I should pick this up and continue on.
::Speaker 2
Which is part of the grit.
::Speaker 1
But you know what? Most people pick up? Not something good.
::Speaker 2
Yeah.
::Speaker 1
When they fall down, they pick up the rock that tripped them. Yeah. And they put it in their backpack and then they keep running. Even if you pick up every rock, you stub your toe on every branch, it hits you in the face, every hurt, everything you keep carrying. All right, I'm going to keep going, but I'm going to take this with me eventually.
::Speaker 1
You are so weighed down that you're like this. This race stinks. This hike is terrible. I can't believe. And you'll start. I can't believe God's making me do all this. It goes like I never asked you to do all that.
::Speaker 2
Never asked you to carry all that.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. Why do you say my yoke is light? Yeah, our yokes heavy. Because our yoke carries all our hurts, habits and hang ups.
::Speaker 2
And we keep adding more to.
::Speaker 1
It. And then in the biggest downside of choices is when we choose to drag all of that with us rather than just learn how to let it go. Yeah. And and like I said, S.R. comes around full circle because in in and even if you don't need a C.R., that's why we promote getting into small groups, getting in a community, getting and you don't have to know everybody.
::Speaker 1
And there are going to be people that you that you have a hard time with in a church, but you need at least one or two people that you can connect and that you can be truly known. And then what you need is you really need to be known, really known because you need to be accepted. And the problem is you can only be accepted to the level which you're known.
::Speaker 1
So when people say they have friends, well, that didn't really work. Communion worked well, did they? I know they accept me, but it didn't work. You know why? Because you know they're not accepting all of you because you've never let them know. All of you. Yep. And true. And so I can't really accept that acceptance because internally I know it's not real now and then we it's lot of people.
::Speaker 1
I could be totally non and totally there's a lot of community in the world that says you can you will know everything about you and we don't care. The problem is biblical community says we know you, accept you, but we're not to leave you there. Yeah. So we will support you and develop you. So the problem is you can only be accepted level what you're known and you can only be supported to the level of which you're willing to be developed.
::Speaker 1
And, and that's that's that takes grit. Yeah. That's, that's a process.
::Speaker 2
That's going to be.
::Speaker 1
Painful. Yeah. And most people, when they get into a friendship or if they go to a home group or if they come to a church, they're not upfront. That's not what they consciously are looking for. I'm going to get into community and a lot of people do. Like I said, what we started this whole conversation with, they don't go there with the end in mind.
::Speaker 1
They go there with, you know, it'd be nice to have some friends. It'd be nice to know some people and that's okay. But what.
::Speaker 2
What is the end in mind that they should.
::Speaker 1
Have that actual real community as they're known, accepted, supported and developed and developed is to become more like Jesus, to be that image. Let God put the mirror back together and start reflecting is the thing about a mirror is the mirror isn't the center point. The purpose of the mirror is not to show you a mirror. You don't look at a mirror to see a mirror.
::Speaker 1
You look. You look in a mirror to see a reflection. Yeah. And the truth is, it's not supposed to be us standing in front of the mirror. We are the mirror. We're not the thing in front. We're supposed to reflect Jesus. Yeah. And I think that's what a lot of people do. They run around in the world without Christ, and they're looking for.
::Speaker 1
They're looking in a mirror and they're putting themselves in front of the mirror. Yeah, and that's that's terrible in both ways. One is not what we're supposed to do. But secondly, they're looking at themselves through a broken mirror.
::Speaker 2
Bill, this has been so good because you you really unpacked a lot of when you talk about, you know, leading ourselves through mistakes or leaving ourselves through failures. And we didn't really talk specifically about that. But you've given a lot of advice, I think, on how to do that. I mean, you've talked.
::Speaker 1
About this because I've never felt I don't know how to lead myself.
::Speaker 2
I mean, it's all theory free.
::Speaker 1
Yes. Has just it's all him but you.
::Speaker 2
I mean, and that's the truth. You've you've had to forgive people. You've had to forgive yourself. You've had to let go. You've talked about taking thoughts captive. You've had and I loved the tangible advice you gave, even saying it out loud. I would encourage our audience what you said sometimes saying out loud, not just thinking like, well, that's a lie, that's a feeling that I have.
::Speaker 2
But that's why you're saying sometimes say it out loud.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, I will say it out loud sometimes. Like you said, the guy, your friend that burns picture. I tell people that sometimes it's good to write the name or write the thing that's bothering you so much. Pray about it and then light it on fire. Yeah, almost symbolically saying it's. It's gone. It's just burnt up and it's gone and do that as many times as you need to.
::Speaker 2
And that's the key as many times because next week when that comes back, it's not that well, I must not have done it right. So, you know, it's just well, maybe a big hurt. You got to do it again.
::Speaker 1
Well, I know relentless because I know you care about it too. But grit, when you say personal, how you get through those choices is you you need that endurance. Yeah. For example, you know, I talked about my dad, military guy. He was at the Battle of Iwo Jima. And that's one of the most famous photo of World War Two countries, a guy raising the flag.
::Speaker 1
Here's what's weird is when he they took those beaches, that flag went up on day. They took mount services. This volcanic rock has one tall mountain. So they knew once they took the mountain where they had the big guns and everything, they knew they were going to win. So that flag went up because it symbolize we know we won.
::Speaker 2
Most people think.
::Speaker 1
st. A flag went up on Calvary: ::Speaker 1
Jesus declared victory on that mount. Yeah. And he says, we've already won, but there's an enemy that won't quit. Yeah. And we still have to fight. And I love in Ephesians when it says put on the armor of God, that's kind of the answer I'd give you in a nutshell. Go to there and read what it means. It's really practical.
::Speaker 1
It's not overly complex, it's faith, it's this. And I love how it says, you know, the helmet of salvation because you know, you've won, but it gets in your head. But then it says the way you continue to move forward is it talks about putting on the shoes. And it's the gospel of peace. The gospel. It's the good.
::Speaker 1
It's good. It's how we're saved. It's the good news in those Romans soldiers, they would put nails, though. They basically made cleats, combat boots that are cleats back in the day. So they were able to dig in. And actually, the best way they had no on the back. That's a common people use that illustration all time because they fought in these big squares and all that.
::Speaker 1
And if it broke down to kind of just a melee, they kind of had battle, so to speak. So you you went back to back with a partner. And what you had the advantage of standing firm is you plant that foot and you plant it right up next to the other guy and that's grit. And now you can fight.
::Speaker 1
But I love how Paul writes this. The Holy Spirit inspired him, right? It is one of my favorite little nuances in all the Scripture. It says, When you've done all you can to stand the stand, that's grit. He just defined it. He's like, When you've done all, it's like, We've done this.
::Speaker 2
So.
::Speaker 1
It's when you've done all you can. As he says, basically, you walk up and you plant that foot and then once you've done that, now do that. Yeah, and that's grit. What do you do is like like like when I was younger, my mom had to teach me how to hit a curveball because my my dad didn't have the patience.
::Speaker 1
He was the baseball major league baseball. But my mom was a great athlete. She could hit a curveball. So as she goes, here's how you got to do it. It a curve ball go slower. It kind of fools you. It's a trick. And when you hit, you want to stay with most of your weight on that back foot.
::Speaker 1
And you know, when you go up to bat, you know, ever when you dig that foot in, you do what you can to stand. You take your stance. And then what the curveball does is it makes you throw that weight forward and take the weight off that back foot. But you keep and then you swing and then you have no power and you have no this.
::Speaker 1
So basically she was teaching me, you got to see the spin. You got to know the situation and how you do it. Like just like it says, no, the enemy, no. The attacks know your own hurts, habits and hang ups. Expect where are the the situation where the curveball is going to come? That would be the other advice I'd give to speak it out loud.
::Speaker 1
But also just you got to get to know yourself. You got to get to know the situation. You got to go, Oh, this is going to be a curveball moment. Something's going to come in and ask for. And that's and she says, what you do is don't throw your weight forward. Don't take it. Don't don't leap at it is if you keep that foot back, you will be able to drive.
::Speaker 1
That ball is easy. There's nothing easier to swat than a curve ball that you know is coming and it's hanging. Yeah. And so basically do whatever you can to stand and then stand. Yeah. That and keep the weight. And the last thing too I would share is, is something my wife said to me and she just shared this with a bunch of church planter wives because they're like just getting started.
::Speaker 1
And she goes white. Strongest advice to you is this people are going to hurt you. They're going to have a realistic expectations. They're judging me tough stuff. And the problem is we're supposed to love people. And she goes, It took me a while to learn this. I've learned from Scripture. She goes, Stay in the word.
::Speaker 2
Hm.
::Speaker 1
Most of my how I make decisions and how I even lead most of my leadership almost every time make people go, well, who do you listen to? I listen a lot of people I like. I like learning. We talk about leadership. I help people. I'm not opposed to that. But most of the development of when you're in a moment where you just don't know what to do and it's crazy is I guarantee if you know the word of God, you probably know at least the way you should be handling it.
::Speaker 1
You might not know exactly the decision, but you know how you should be acting in this moment. In a lot of times, acting the right way, having the right character, having the right temperament in the right scenario literally leads you to the right choice anyways. But so she told these women, like, if you're going to get hurt, you got to understand that people going to have to hurt you.
::Speaker 1
And what she learned is you got to keep your skin thick but your heart soft.
::Speaker 2
Oh, that's good.
::Speaker 1
I wrote that down. I said, I got to say that it was it was wise. And she goes, because if most people have thin skin and hardened hearts, yes, they do. And you got to keep a soft heart and thick skin.
::Speaker 2
This this takes this whole conversation full circle, because we were talking earlier about hurt people. Hurt people. You know, you got to let go of things. You got to forgive. And that's what happens when we don't. We end up with a hard heart and thin skin and your wife was suggesting thick skin and soft heart.
::Speaker 1
Yep. Keep the heart soft in the skin.
::Speaker 2
Thick. That's like the mic drop moment right there. That's what we got to end on that one. That's so good. That is so good. That's a great one to walk away.
::Speaker 1
So I guess the real answer to all this is, is marry. Well, yeah.
::Speaker 2
I guess we got to just shortness hopefully. Yeah. So. So what advice is your wife?
::Speaker 1
You want me to give you the greatest advice on how to make good choices? Carrie, come here and then I'll leave. Can you just talk to her?
::Speaker 2
This would have been a lot shorter, but we had a lot of fun together, so. Well, we have to end, as we always do. The two truths in a lie, which is fun. No. The first time you didn't stump me, you were not a very good idea. Let's see if you can lie. Hoo!
::Speaker 1
You destroyed me the first time. And honestly, I probably thought harder about this than the topic we were going to talk about. If I'm honest in the choice I made, but I'm like, I don't know. So here we go to Truth in Light. Okay, here's three things that have happened to me. And there is I have been Stockton confronted by a mountain line.
::Speaker 1
I've been adrift at sea and I've been chased by a bear.
::Speaker 2
Oh. Oh, okay. So stock to buy a mountain lion adrift at sea or what was the bear chased by? Chased by a bear? Okay. Okay, I'm going. Oh, man. You know, I'm going to say the mountain lions, the lie.
::Speaker 1
Yes, I won this time.
::Speaker 2
Oh, you know, I was just saying that because I grew up in western Montana, where if people go hunt mountain lions, it's where I grew up there. So my mom never saw in my life. So most people never see them. LANE So that was where that's where I was going, is I'm going I bet.
::Speaker 1
I told you I thought about this a lot more. I thought you would go for the Malick is most people. I know a lot of hunters. Yeah, yeah. I've actually been confronted by a mountain lion three times.
::Speaker 2
Are you serious?
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And I'm not Mr. Outdoorsman. Yeah. I have ran into a little outline three times, so I knew that might get you. Or you might go with you adrift at sea. And it was the. It was the bear. I haven't been chased by a bear. I've ran into bears before, but I've never had one chased me adrift at sea was Emily.
::Speaker 1
We did see dunes out on the ocean, and I went pretty far. We'd go. I didn't just stay right. I broke.
::Speaker 2
Down.
::Speaker 1
And yeah, it. It sucked up some kelp and it stopped and it took over an hour. I was just floating out there kind of manly and I'm like, Oh, and finally my friend who was going the other, he was off. He just randomly decided to come that way. So he found me. And fortunately he had rope in the sea too.
::Speaker 1
And he told me that. But then his started to suck some kelp, so it started going slow so we barely get. And then I decided I'm not getting on a little jet ski see do and going out into the ocean that far anymore because.
::Speaker 2
It's a famous movie line. We need a bigger boat.
::Speaker 1
Yes. You need a much bigger boat. And I'm terrified of the ocean, of being in the water. I didn't mind being on top of the water, but I realized I don't really want to be floating around on top of the water.
::Speaker 2
You're something little that there's bigger things underneath you.
::Speaker 1
So I'm glad I thought about it. I didn't I didn't have the sophomore slump on that.
::Speaker 2
So here's here's the deal. I'm proud of you. You become a good liar. Bill, thanks so much for being here. Appreciate it, man.
::Speaker 1
Thank you, sir. Love you, man.
::Speaker 2
Hey, thanks so much for joining us on the No Great Areas podcast. Bill Bush was amazing, wasn't he? And the question for you and I to wrestle with, how are you keeping your skin thick and your heart soft? Make sure you like subscribe and follow us at no gray areas.
