Responding vs. Reacting | Ep. 46 with Brian Yates
If you're wrong, would you want to know?
Sometimes we let our ego get in the way of our decision-making. We think we're right all the time and have all the correct answers. The truth is, we don't. Our impulsive decisions can lead to bad consequences.
Brian Yates helps us understand the difference between responding and reacting. He suggests we pause and ask more questions before we make any major decisions.
Listen to Brian and Pat's conversation on more practical ways to make better decisions, and ultimately live a better life.
If you have questions for Brian, you can ask him on his inquiry website at Vennsonder.com
The NO GREY AREAS platform is about the power, importance, and complexity of choices. We host motivating and informative interviews with captivating guests from all walks of life about learning and growing through our good and bad choices.
To learn more about the story behind No Grey Areas, check out the link below! https://www.nogreyareas.com
Want to be a part of the change and share your story? Follow us on social media, message us, and learn how to get involved!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nogreyareasbook/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/NoGreyAreasBook/
Transcript
Speaker 1
Welcome to no gray areas. Today's guest, Brian Yates. Fascinating story. Let me just give you a teaser, okay. It has to do with all kinds of foreign countries. Dogs and bags full of money. You're not going to want to miss this story. Join us now.
::Speaker 1
O'BRIEN Welcome to the No Gray Areas podcast. So good to have you here. We've known each other for a couple of years now, but I didn't know until fairly recently. You have a crazy, crazy, complex story, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's let's jump into that a little bit. But I got it to just set it up. If any of our listeners have watched War Dogs, it gives a little glimpse of what your story is.
::Speaker 1
Now, we're not going to jump into that part. I just captured their interest. All right. They're going to stay on to find out what that's about. But let me back up and go. Where did you grow up?
::Speaker 2
So I grew up. It was born and raised in Wisconsin. Southern Wisconsin lived on a farm.
::Speaker 1
Farm boy.
::Speaker 2
Oh, yeah.
::Speaker 1
So you know how to work.
::Speaker 2
I knew how to work. And then it became a an attempt on a trajectory of. How can I work less? Yeah, yeah. But yeah, no, a lot. A long summers back their.
::Speaker 1
Way back in my early twenties, I managed a cleaning crew and as soon as I saw everybody was was trying to get hired, if they put on their the resume that they were a farm boy, farm girl, whatever, they were immediately hired someone they know how to.
::Speaker 2
Work, baling hay de tassel and shoveling manure, you name it.
::Speaker 1
Yep, yep. You do it all.
::Speaker 2
That's right.
::Speaker 1
Okay. So you grew up farm boy. What were your dreams? What were your hopes? What were you what did your parents want you to do?
::Speaker 2
I want my parents wanted me to get in trouble. Yes. That's what they wanted.
::Speaker 1
A parent's dream.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, right.
::Speaker 1
So like a parent's dream child.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, well, probably not always. I always had a draw toward law enforcement. And, you know, I was I was probably the poster child for A.D.D. as a kid. I didn't have any crystal clear path to go on, but I was always drawn toward that.
::Speaker 1
So what was your favorite subject in school.
::Speaker 2
Jim? I mean, seriously. Yeah, I mean, there's no.
::Speaker 1
I knew. I knew you're going to say things.
::Speaker 2
Still and listening. I mean.
::Speaker 1
Without me, too.
::Speaker 2
Unbelievably difficult.
::Speaker 1
That's why I knew Jim was going to be your father. You were. You were like me. I would just sit there and watch it, look up, and I'd be like, half an hour to Jim. Oh, 2 minutes later, I'd look back up and it felt like it was another hour. Yeah, right. Yeah.
::Speaker 2
And when gym class ended, it was like the end of the world.
::Speaker 1
Yep.
::Speaker 2
I have to go back to the prison.
::Speaker 1
Yes, that's true. It's true. Okay, so. So you're. You're thinking you might want to be a cop. Your parents are just hoping you get in trouble last. So were you getting a lot of trouble in high school with.
::Speaker 2
Just I mean, you know the rambunctious can't sit still and that was in a much more conservative time and so you know not sitting still and Sunday school was a big deal.
::Speaker 1
Yeah.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, not having that attention span was seen as problematic. So, yeah, I was sent out in first grade for testing. No testing. That's air quotes. If you're not watching this on YouTube.
::Speaker 1
Did they find out anything in the air? Quotes, testing? Yeah.
::Speaker 2
So, I mean, again, nope, no pat on my own back. But I was way smarter than they all thought. And and it was, you know, it was literally just an inability to focus and sit still and, you know, little boys just getting dirty and breaking things and getting hurt. And but that's what happens when you grow up on a farm.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. I don't know what else they expect.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So where did you go from there then?
::Speaker 2
So I, I did a short stint in college and the university and I came to an agreement that I was better suited to do something else at the time. Not very different from my high school track.
::Speaker 1
I like how you put that, though. You and the university came to an agreement.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, I was all. I mean, you'll find out I'm a doctor first. I mean, I have to be. Well, it's funny, because I was on, I. I think I got accepted on academic probation. And then after the first semester, they were like, Oh, this isn't going well. So I think I just kind of mailed it in for the second semester knowing that my path was going to quickly change.
::Speaker 1
You know, just really quickly. So similar story, but I backed mine up. So we're we're almost like twins so far in life, I think. Yeah, I grew up way out in the country, learned all the work and but my sister was brilliant, smart. She was three years older than me. So I went to a small school, but when I was in eighth grade, they put me in all these high school classes because I was they assumed I was like.
::Speaker 1
Becky McCullough. Well, a month into school, the the administration and my parents came to a mutual understanding.
::Speaker 2
So.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, so very similar. Yeah. Okay. So, so you have this mutual understanding that you should do something other than school, right?
::Speaker 2
And so I took a diversion and went to the military, spent four years in the Air Force, had an amazing experience and.
::Speaker 1
You like that?
::Speaker 2
I did enjoy it. And, you know, looking back and we can we can get into this later as we talk about making decisions. I was anxious to get out. I was tired of the structure.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. Because I was going to ask you that because if you were someone that didn't like the structure of school, what was the difference with the structure?
::Speaker 2
It was actually way in the military there was very little autonomy and very little responsibility in terms of here's this book, go study it. It it was none of that. It was don't just tie your boots. Tie your boots this way. Yeah. And that was really helpful.
::Speaker 1
Okay.
::Speaker 2
Because, you know, I couldn't screw it up if you taught me the switch. I had to flip, and that's all I had to do. So but I think that was very formative for me in terms of self-discipline and in realizing that for me to to gain some more responsibility and autonomy in my own life, I would have to be responsible, have some self-discipline.
::Speaker 2
And so that was that absolutely changed my trajectory when I got out of the military, went back to school and was able to achieve some success.
::Speaker 1
And so in the military helped you? AB what you needed to do?
::Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And as I look back, you know, we what f all the time in our lives wonder what it would have been like if I would have made a career out of that. But again, I, you know, I think God moves in ways that redirects us. And I was not mentally fit to stay on that path at that time.
::Speaker 2
And so I got out, went back to school. And, you know, I certainly don't regret any of that. But you always wonder, you know, what would it have been like?
::Speaker 1
Yeah. So what did you go to school for then? Because you I think you said your undergrad was.
::Speaker 2
So I got an associate's degree in criminal justice and then I got an undergrad bachelor's in organizational leadership.
::Speaker 1
So were you still thinking about going into police work? Is that why you do the criminal justice?
::Speaker 2
I did and then I did. So I went into U.S. Customs and worked drug dogs for a few years.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. Now we're approaching the war dog part of the story. Yeah, we're getting there. So we're getting. So, you see, I'm just, I keep putting the hooks in the.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, it's yeah. Don't go away. Yeah.
::Speaker 1
So you're, you get done with school, criminal justice, organizational leadership, and then you go right to working with U.S. Customs, specifically with drug dogs, to retraining them.
::Speaker 2
Well, I was a handler, but you had to train your own dog. So typically you would go to the school for three plus months and train a couple of dogs in the one you chose you got to take back to work with you. And the other one would go out into the system for someone who's dog retired or they just needed an available asset.
::Speaker 1
Now you're as people are going to learn, you're a little bit of an entrepreneur as well. So where did you start seeing that? Like did you see that when you look back now in your life, do you see that at a younger age or did that really start developing at this time now?
::Speaker 2
That's a really good question. Again, with an inability to focus, a lot of my pivots or change of directions were very sudden like, Yeah, I just want to do something different, so I'm going to do that. But I think that's also in the entrepreneurial spirit because when they see something they want to do, they just go after it.
::Speaker 2
They don't necessarily build the best business case. They just they want to go rub two, stick together and see if they can make fire.
::Speaker 1
They like to build planes while they're flying. Absolutely.
::Speaker 2
100% will pack the parachute on the way down to worry about it. Yeah, let's just go. Exactly, exactly.
::Speaker 1
So you look back on your life and you see a little bit of that in you.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. So as a child, spontaneity isn't best. But I think as you get older, it also it allows you to overcome some of those barriers of resistance and maybe some fears. And, you know, let's just jump in, see what happens and feel like you have the confidence to kind of compensate if it doesn't go well on the land.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. So how long were you working with the U.S. Customs for?
::Speaker 2
Four years.
::Speaker 1
For four years. Okay. And then where you go from there.
::Speaker 2
So I actually had a break in service. I work for I worked in Chicago, in Los Angeles, and I had a break in service in there. So it was a total of four years. But on the break, it was partially a family decision to not work the shifts and the types of things that came with it. I went out and, you know, worked in corporate America, worked as a financial advisors assistant, did some other things, then went back into customs.
::Speaker 2
And then, you know, shortly after 911 started to realize while I was working with dogs again, that at some point the need for bomb dogs is going to become a commercial application, not just the government.
::Speaker 1
This is where your entrepreneurial spirit might come.
::Speaker 2
Right? So I, you know, met up with a buddy and he and I ended up becoming business partners and, you know, started an organization that provided bomb dogs to the military. Yeah. And, you know, we worked exclusively with the Department of Defense across all branches of the military, doing odd jobs in odd places.
::Speaker 1
So you and when you say odd jobs, not places. Okay, unpack that a little bit for us, because I know you've told me some stories in the like some people may be going like, okay, so you were traveling around the U.S. in different states or.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, no. So and I want to preface this because I've I've watched a lot of podcasts and I've seen some really cool, you know, documentaries on people's stories. And let me just start by saying there's nothing special about me. Like I'm not some cool whiz bang stud, like, you see a, you know, a Jocko Willink or the guys from War Dogs, although I think they may have been is, is limited in their brain width as me.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. That's part of their story.
::Speaker 2
But you know, a lot of my career was being at the right place at the right time and being surrounded by really good people. And so my business partner and I, you know, found an opportunity. We were awarded the first bomb dog contract for Baghdad International Airport, and it was just one guy with two dogs so they could rotate them.
::Speaker 2
And my partner went over and started working it and that was the airport where all the military units were coming in and out of. Is it eight.
::Speaker 1
After nine.
::Speaker 2
11, right? Oh, yeah. This is right after we took over control of the airfield. And when the military units would come through knowing that they had their own deployable K-9 units that were in the rear with the gear, they approached my partner. I'm like, Can you guys outsource to us? Well, we sure can. Yeah. Yeah. And and glad you asked.
::Speaker 2
And it literally, you know, pardon the pun, it blew up like. Yeah. And we went from about oh three end of oh three to about the end of oh seven. And we went from one guy with two dogs to over 120 dog teams with about 170 dogs in Iraq and Afghanistan when it was, you know, force protection work in entry control points to, you know, major bases or resources.
::Speaker 2
All the way up to including going outside the wire and going on missions and, you know, doing things that the military dogs would typically do for themselves. But they did not deploy those assets. So, again, right place at the right time. And, you know, it was really nutty. It was the wild, wild west, just like the movie War Dogs.
::Speaker 2
Now, now you're being brought into the story here. For those of you listening, there was no roadmap on how to do that. And, you know, the government is dictated by the federal acquisition regulation and they just completely threw that out the window. They needed to get assets and resources in place to do a job and do it now.
::Speaker 2
And so all of the typical solicitations and, you know, RFP processes and that just didn't exist early on to include they could not conduct an electronic funds transfer, meaning they couldn't wire you your pay. So we got paid in physical cash. So you're getting you know, it's all documented and it was all aboveboard and traced from their finance office all the way to our bank.
::Speaker 2
But they would just slide, pile seven figures at you every month, and you were responsible for getting it deposited in your account and paying your people. So it was really unprecedented.
::Speaker 1
So you're you're flying around with that kind of cash?
::Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. Well, in early on, I mean, I've got pictures. When I first got there, I'm wearing like a flannel jacket with like some old western drop holster, you know, with jeans. Just look like this rag tag. I mean, we look like a bunch of hillbillies, let's be honest. And then over time, we were able to develop contracts with, you know, gun manufacturers and armored vehicles and things like that.
::Speaker 2
But early on, I mean, we just look like a bunch of trash with cash rolled into town to do this job and right alongside with the troops. And yeah, but it was a it was a really neat time and super blast. You've been able to do that.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. So, so tell us one of the crazy stories that you have of just that you when you talk about like the wild, wild west and you guys are just trying to figure it out and.
::Speaker 2
There was kind of a string of events. So to that kind of unregulated side of it, when you first got over there, you know, we were sanctioned to be armed, to have armored vehicles, to, you know, to do a lot of the things that you would need to do in that position. And this is State Department, Department of Defense.
::Speaker 2
So all authorized. But they didn't have the ability to give that stuff to us so early on. It was up to us to go find our own weapons and to go. So, you know, there were times when, you know, we were buying, you know, we were doing what are they calling straw sales in the U.S. like locally. And it was sanctioned.
::Speaker 2
But, you know, you're buying weapons off the local market so that you can perform for the Department of Defense. And it it just seems so odd that they, you know, do that for us. But again, there was no there was no book. There was no right or wrong. They hadn't been in that environment before. And I guarantee you, now in the next conflict comes up and they'll be a little further down the road and they'll be able to introduce, you know, third parties a lot more effectively.
::Speaker 2
But, you know, and it was not uncommon to be contacted by the FBI, the DOJ or another agency that either got wind of, you know, our massive cash transfers or, you know, someone that, you know, maybe used to work for us or used to work for a sister company, would go back and, you know, lodge a complaint. So they would come looking and they would be shocked at what they would find and be like, you're not talking to your own people down the hall.
::Speaker 2
You know, the FBI want to know, why are we taking all this, all this cash? And I'm like, well, because you're giving it to us, not you specifically, but your brother. Yeah. So it was it was it was chaotic and and fun, but, you know, it was there was no real methodology of getting through it. You were just navigating as best you could, going at high full speed.
::Speaker 1
Okay. So tell us best day and worst day in that time period for you.
::Speaker 2
Well, without question, the worst day was when I remember a Navy E-5 walked into our office, introduced himself and said that he was there to do a troop to task ratio, which immediately those of us that had been in the military and those of us that had been working with contracts for a while, knew the writing was on the wall.
::Speaker 2
The military is going to insource this. They're going to start deploying all those assets they have around the world for this very reason now that they understand they're going to be there long term. We were kind of a stopgap in a short term fix, but we had long term contracts. And like I said, they did not honor the Federal Acquisition Regulation.
::Speaker 2
So they decided when it was time to pull the plug that we would just go away. And that conversation, I know where I was sitting, I remember that guy's face very vividly, and that was that that was bad.
::Speaker 1
But that would be similar. That would be similar if someone had built a business and it is grow and growing and growing, growing and you're sitting in a room and they basically just basically destroying the whole thing, right? Like, yeah, the whole thing's going to fall apart. Right, right. That was a bad day.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, that was a bad day. And we actually had a number of good days. So again, kind of at an unprecedented way and not any pat on my back, but just a tribute to the great people we had working for us. We were credited by specific military units with finding someone that was on the FBI list by, you know, sourcing materials that was ultimately owned by high value targets over there.
::Speaker 2
And as civilians, that was pretty cool. Like, you know, you go into the chow hall and you're rubbing shoulders with guys that are kicking the dirt every day in uniform. And, you know, that's what their expectation is. But for us to be able to participate in something like that and another really cool story is if you remember back in the news when all the people had the purple ink on their finger saying that they had just voted, they had the first kind of Democratic vote.
::Speaker 2
And the day before we were out searching several of the polling facilities. And one of those facilities was a school, and we found a locker that was rigged full of explosives. So there's a lot of those stories out there from our company and from a lot of others that had done really, really good things. But in the fog of war, nobody sits around and, you know, gives you the golf clap or, you know, does anything else.
::Speaker 2
It's just, you know, you're over there, you get paid well and you're there to do a job and you do it. But that was exciting. It was just neat to be a part of something like that, knowing that, yeah, history was being was a.
::Speaker 1
Massive event in that country and yeah. And you guys were part of that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
::Speaker 2
Really cool.
::Speaker 1
How many at the height of it, how many dogs did you say you guys had? Did you trained?
::Speaker 2
We had 120 handlers under contract. So typically you'd have I think the ratio is 1.5 or 1.7 dogs. So basically you have to you have to have enough dogs in the kennel so that dogs goes down. It needs to see the vet or, you know, a dog can only work so much time during the day, so you have to adjust.
::Speaker 2
So it wasn't quite two dogs to one, but I'd say at one point we probably had 170, 180 dogs in the kennels.
::Speaker 1
And that and that's over there. Or like where were your kennels?
::Speaker 2
So we had we were all over the place. We had a breeding facility down in South Africa that was, you know, supposed to be a long term project of instead of buying all these dogs from Europe, being able to produce our own, we had a training facility in with that.
::Speaker 1
That E-5 that you're working scribe. If he.
::Speaker 2
Was there, he knew I think he knew he was going to teach you civilian.
::Speaker 1
Something. Yeah.
::Speaker 2
No, but yeah. So, I mean, we had we really had dogs all over the place. The first time we ever I ever took dogs in, we flew in to Amman, Jordan, and literally hired like taxi drivers with Suburbans. And we created in eight dogs and there were five or six of us. So we had to drive from Amman, Jordan to Baghdad.
::Speaker 2
Terrible idea. I mean, talk about bad decisions, which is a great Segway.
::Speaker 1
Yeah.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, it's funny you look back on stuff like that and you know, we all did it as kids. Like, how did we survive? You know, I don't know how that worked, but I look at a lot of the stuff that we got into as adults and yeah, it's amazing.
::Speaker 1
How many years were you involved in that you said was that also from 303.
::Speaker 2
207? Yeah. Then you know, again, you, you meet people at the chow hall, you meet people on an airplane, you meet people at an airport in in that kind of industry. And so then as we were closing that down, I pivoted and got into executive protection, okay? And then ultimately worked with a client in the Middle East that was part of a royal family for on and off for about two, two and a half years and ran his dignitary protection detail.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. Which was no small deal. Yeah. Yeah. Executive pay protection. But you were, you were literally doing that right? Yeah. In the right way. In a big way. I suppose you have some great stories, but maybe you can't tell them.
::Speaker 2
A lot of that is covered by confidentiality agreements. But yeah, I mean, it was it was nuts. I mean, the amount of of of wealth there is unbelievable. And, you know, I've spoken before, you know, one of the big takeaways was, you know, my adjusting, my perspective, I really do value now all the time that I spent internationally because it did teach me other perspectives.
::Speaker 2
You know, the way other people view the U.S. isn't as great as I once thought it was. And but probably most importantly to my faith and to my life was the the way that in the U.S. we don't deal with royalty. You know, the queen just died and it was on the news. And it's kind of a sexy story for a while, but nobody really understands what royalty is.
::Speaker 2
And so having had the privilege to work in that environment, it really reframed how I see Jesus as king.
::Speaker 1
I love that because we talked about this before, but is being true to men of faith. And we know we believe the biblical narrative is it's about a kingdom. That's what you're talking about, right? It's not about a democracy, right? It's about a kingdom. And the kingdom has a king. And you're saying one of the things you learned as you were working in and something that similar, a monarchy, you're seeing the difference between that and the democracy.
::Speaker 1
What what was what were some of the differences and what do you mean how that helped you understand your faith more.
::Speaker 2
So probably the best way I can describe it isn't so much my engagement with the royal member. I had a great relationship with him and you know, he taught me some great things, some things to do, some things not to do, but I had a great relationship with him. But what was the probably made the biggest impression on me was watching the people around him that either grew up in that monarchy or near it or people that had been in his, you know, in his employ for a long period of time.
::Speaker 2
And seeing the way they spoke about him, seeing the way they interacted with him, there was a there's a level of reverence. There's a level of respect that goes far beyond agreeing with everything that someone says. And it just yeah, I spoke on this one time and really there was an event where I got to watch a lot of his personal staff kind of scurrying around one night.
::Speaker 2
And I it's something that you see every day. And one particular night I remember seeing that. And then later on and by myself in my hotel room, I, you know, I, I don't know if God spoke to me or if this was just a, a new realization, but why don't I treat Jesus like that, like these, you know, kind of air quotes, servants.
::Speaker 2
But whether they're professional staff or, you know, other people on my team that are providing security. But you just you see other of his family members come in and the way that they interact with him. And, you know, again, it's the way they talk about him was such reverence and even though sometimes maybe personally he wasn't a person to be revered, but his position was and understanding that we talk about Jesus as king, but certainly in my life I've not treated him as king now the way I've seen other people treat royalty.
::Speaker 2
And I think that's I think that's a big gap.
::Speaker 1
And it's such a powerful point because probably most of the listeners here grew up in America in a democracy or a republic, and it it is different. We wouldn't understand the monarchy. In fact, when I read about it, you know, sometimes it's so foreign to me, I'm like, I wouldn't I'm not bowing down anybody. That mindset right. Right.
::Speaker 1
But when you when you actually live in and experience the monarchy up close like you did, there are principles that you learned that you could really apply. Right? Like, I love what you're saying. You saw these all these people scrambling around to serve him simply because of his office, right? Yeah. Yeah. But again, what we would believe as being a man of faith is that he doesn't just hold that office.
::Speaker 1
He actually lives it out. Right. Better than anyone has. Right?
::Speaker 2
Like 100%. There's. Yeah, there's good kings and bad kings.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. But we see we serve a good king, right, man? That's so great. So, man, you've had what what an interesting life you've had. And what are some of the lessons you've learned? Like, let, let, let me let me just back up a little bit. As you know, I shared a little bit about where this podcast came from, and it's tied to no gray areas.
::Speaker 1
And this story, the biggest sports scandal that they know of and two guys, especially their life, there was actually more than two. But the two main guys, main characters in the story, it changed their life forever. They made a choice, a decision in their twenties that they both made because they started stepping into some gray areas and it still affects them to this day.
::Speaker 1
But the truth is, is none of us get through this life without some mistakes. Right. So what are some of the mistakes that you've made? What are some things that you've had to correct? How would you suggest we lead ourselves through our mistakes and our failures?
::Speaker 2
I again, I describe myself as just a dumb farm kid from Wisconsin, like I have had some amazing supervisors and mentors and coaches in athletics that really were the, you know, the most powerful impact on my mindset. And I had a supervisor one time in law enforcement that just asked me the question, if you're wrong, do you want to know?
::Speaker 2
And to me, the value in that is, you know, you've gotten to know me a little bit. I'm not just an A personality. I'm like a triple-A person. And then along with that comes, I have to be right. This is self-motivated. And there's obviously some arrogance and pride that gets in the way for sure. But it's this drive and this motivation that I have to be right.
::Speaker 2
I have to get it done. I have to do it the best. And in that mindset, a lot of times there's a barrier to looking at other ways of doing things. And so, I mean, I could list off, you know, hundreds of mistakes that I've made. But I think the most powerful thing where I can share in where you're going with this is if you're wrong, do you want to know?
::Speaker 2
And the answer should be yes, right? But pride and other things get in the way. And more than anything, I think back to the point of kind of kingship, Josiah is one of my favorite stories in the Bible because he was a young king and he thought he was doing it right. He was doing what his father had told him to do.
::Speaker 2
And he had surrounded himself with what he thought were really good people. And he thought what he was doing was right. And then some of his spiritual leaders uncovered some old texts that he had not read and had not been read to him. Now, all of a sudden, where he thought he was doing things right just got expanded and he realized he was wildly off course.
::Speaker 2
And so kind of in that vein of, I think Stephen Covey and probably now a million people have said it, but seek to understand and then be understood. And you know, as I got further into my career, if someone would someone in my employ would come to me with a question, my first question is how long do I have to answer this?
::Speaker 2
Because I can make really good decisions based on the information I have right now. But I might not have all the information. And so it's gathered. It's asking better questions. I went I went to graduate school and thought I was going to come out of there with all the answers. Absolutely not. I probably came out of there more confused, but I did learn how to ask really good questions.
::Speaker 2
And so I wish.
::Speaker 1
Such an important part in life, isn't it?
::Speaker 2
Yeah. And I wish going back now to, you know, go through the catalog of mistakes and bad decisions. I wish I had hadn't been in such a rush all the time to come up with that right answer. And you know.
::Speaker 1
Where do you think that comes from for us? I think most people that are in a leadership position, all of us at some point are leading something. You know, some people may say, well, I'm not a leader, but you're a parent, so you are leaders. Sure. But what do you think that comes from? Where we we are pretty quick to try to have an answer.
::Speaker 1
We don't ask the right questions. Where does that come from?
::Speaker 2
Well, I mean, I'm sure you can appreciate this. You know, when you're baling hay and grandpa says, go grab another one, you don't ask questions, you go do it. Yes.
::Speaker 1
I wasn't grampa dad. Right, Dad. In fact, my dad was like, I shouldn't have to ask you to do that. You you watched me pick up right pieces of wood to cut it, figure it out, pick it up next time.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. And so I do think that there's a compulsion there to be right. And maybe maybe a different way of saying this is just be sure you have as much information as you possibly can as you make that decision. You know, I've I've had the privilege to work with some younger folks that are getting married or getting ready to have kids or changing jobs.
::Speaker 2
And, you know, we tend to be an impulsive people, I think, in America especially. And, you know, I think of the the guys involved in this this movie, in this project, you know, a lot of times you're, you know, ending up somewhere very dangerous. And with those heavy, heavy consequences wasn't a decision. You woke up one morning and decided, you know what, I want to risk going to prison for the rest of my life.
::Speaker 2
Nobody wakes up and decides that, yeah.
::Speaker 1
You're so.
::Speaker 2
Right. And it's, it's it's a thousand decisions between here and there. And maybe at times there's an inclination to, you know, take higher risks or or maybe work outside the rules a little bit. And if you take that one step and you're successful and then you keep going down that path, then the consequences just build and they get bigger.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And what I love about it, I remember reading a quote years and years ago, indecisive leadership is an oxymoron and I agree with that. You know, I think that as leaders, you have to make decisions. But what you're suggesting, what you're saying is sometimes pausing before you make that decision, sometimes giving a 24 hour or 48 hours, whatever you can do, asking some other questions so you have more information.
::Speaker 1
That's not indecisiveness, that's just wisdom. Right?
::Speaker 2
Right. Again, every time you're you're you're posed with a decision to make. How long do I have? You know, is this problem still going to be here in the morning? Can I tackle it then? Yeah. You know, I love sleeping on big decisions. Yeah. And if you can't, you know, make the best decision that you can with the information you have right now.
::Speaker 2
And, you know, for me, it was don't let my pride get in the way. Is there something I'm not considering or is is there a way I could go get information, even if that means I got to go ask Pat and then it's going to look like I'm not as smart and I'm asking for help. And, you know, meekness is not weakness.
::Speaker 1
Yes.
::Speaker 2
And that that idea of, you know, as a leader, servant leadership, you know, if you're always the smartest guy in the room, chances are everyone in your organization is going to take on that same personality and feel like they have to be the smartest guy in the room.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. And then you just have a room full of know it also them asking good questions, right? Yeah. Yeah, great point. Great point. Yeah. I think I think along those lines, one of the things that I'm learning in life too is, is when I feel an emotion like like anger, like something made me angry if I just wait 24 hours now, I may still come up with the same solution that I had when I was really angry when I first heard it.
::Speaker 1
But at least it's given me time to process it. And I'm not just doing it out of a stupid emotion.
::Speaker 2
Right then choosing to respond instead of reacting.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. I think too that sometimes, especially for younger leaders, the mistake we make is, is I feel like if I'm leading something, I have to have all the answers and you got to let go of that. That's a fallacy. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I've also learned and I didn't do this earlier in life, but I've also learned a lot more when I have people come to me with a question instead of just giving a solution, I say, What do you think?
::Speaker 2
Yeah, what.
::Speaker 1
Do you think we should do? Right? And then we'll often come up with maybe what you were going to do or maybe a better idea.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, I think that's, you know, early on like in Total Quality Management and some other more as inclusivity became, you know, more popular term. And as you look at it in business and even in family environments, you know, my idea plus your idea usually equals a better third idea. And working internationally, I'll be honest, I remember going over to Asia, to the Middle East, Africa, and just having this sense of, you know, nobody's better than America.
::Speaker 2
And so nobody's better than an American. Me and and learning so many great things from some of the most humble, simple people that we're just really good at doing life. Yeah. And, and, you know, some of those, some of those bad choices in my life, you know, were, I think, helpful in chipping away at that pride, at that stubbornness and at that impulsiveness to got to be right, got to answer right now.
::Speaker 2
Got to be the smartest guy in the room. And you take some lumps like that after a while and then you start, you know, take an hour before I shoot myself in the foot. Let me.
::Speaker 1
You know what you're saying, though, Brian? I think it's so good because the truth is, is that our strengths can become our weaknesses. Right. And clearly, from your story years, one of your strengths is your you're a driver type personality. You're going to figure it out. You're going to and and God kind of wired you that way. But that can also get in the in the way that can also turn into pride.
::Speaker 1
That can also turn into arrogance. So it's like it was a strength of yours. But in life you've had to learn how to not let that strength become a weakness. Is that it?
::Speaker 2
Know, I think and I think that's how I was wired with that. And then I think it became a weakness and I think based on being around really good people, people have showed me how that can be a tremendous strength. Yeah, but getting it done and getting it done right doesn't always mean getting it done right now. Yeah, you know, it's seeking more counsel, it's seeking more information and then doing a really good job with it down the road versus, you know, the old, you know, better to measure ten times and cut once than measure once and cut ten times.
::Speaker 1
I feel like my dad told me that a few times when I had something wrong. Yeah, I never it took me a long time to learn that one. Like I was well into my forties, I think before that one, because even I've taken the strength finder test activator is one of my top strengths. So when should we start?
::Speaker 1
Yesterday. Right. So I want to measure twice. Yeah, much less ten times. Man, you learned the hard way in life. Yeah, you know, I used to think that I'd lose my man card if I read a manual or instruction. Right. But now I go and I'm saving. I go get my readers. And by the time I learned that, I should read the manual.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, I have to wear reader. That's exactly what it is too.
::Speaker 2
Sometimes that age equals wisdom.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, but that's good. That's good, though. That's because, I mean, they couldn't go the other way. It can't go the other way. No, age doesn't automatically mean wisdom. It's age with actually humility and recognize you're a lifelong learner because we know a lot of old people that are really still dumb. Yeah, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So spiritual.
::Speaker 1
Jesse James, you've used that phrase to describe you. What does that mean?
::Speaker 2
I think because of my rambunctious childhood and I have always been I love interacting with people, but I've always been a loner in the sense that I'm okay, just running this one solo. You know, I don't always have to be engaged with other people. And I think that combined with a little bit of recklessness along the way, you know, I can remember a time when, you know, faith was really important to me.
::Speaker 2
You know, we were going to have this conversation and you were going to figure this out because I know the right answer. And and I think that caused a lot of damage, you know, and that was part of that, you know, shoot, ready, aim versus versus learning to do it the right way. Yeah. And so I think the spiritual Jesse James is just this image of this just kind of chaotic, bold, you know, just reckless person kind of running around town.
::Speaker 2
And and I and I think I've been like that at times. But, you know, to God's grace, allowing consequences to be the greatest teacher of all time and and learning how to temper that down a little bit and keeping keeping some of the boldness and the confidence and the drive. But, you know, recognizing that ten people sitting around a table, they're all looking at that table ten different ways.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. And valuing that and learning to seek, to understand and then be understood.
::Speaker 1
Instead of just going those there's nine of them that are wrong.
::Speaker 2
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
::Speaker 1
I think you've answered the somewhat. But let me let me just pretend for a moment imagine that there's a time machine behind you and you get to go climb in it and you get to go back to 18 year old Brian and you have 60 seconds. What would you say to him?
::Speaker 2
That's brutal. I'd rather eat hot wings. Yeah, I would, you know, slow, slow down. Be more calculated and and truly, all the things God's gifted you with you know, don't run ahead of it. And I feel like that's something that I did very poorly, probably still do this day at times. But yeah, I would just coach myself that you can reduce regret, you can reduce consequences and make more effective decisions if you'll just you know, I have this image of, you know, we go up to God and we want something and we want something in our hands aren't open to get anything.
::Speaker 2
And so, you know, it's, hey, just have that posture of needing, seeking and accepting that God help that you need.
::Speaker 1
What do you think 18 year old Brian would say back to you?
::Speaker 2
He would make an obscene gesture and he would say things that you would bleep out on this podcast. I think honestly, no, that's a fair question because I really think it would be. No, I've got this. Yeah. That that that has been posture most of my life. No, no, no. I got this all figured out. So even trying to convince myself, you know, getting out of the time machine with Bill and Ted, trying to convince young Brian that there's a better way to do things, it would have been tough at that time.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, but I also do think going back to mentors like my trajectory would not I would have just continued to stumble and fall and stumble if it weren't for really good people in my life saying, Hey, have you ever thought about doing it this way?
::Speaker 1
Well, you know, we've been doing this podcast for a little over a year now. And I would say one of if I had to say a consistent message we've heard throughout this would be one of them is the importance of mentors just over and over again, people as they look back on their life for good or bad, they'll say sometimes like, I didn't have good mentors in my life or are others would be, Well, a lot of the reason I'm where I'm at today is because of good mentors that interesting that that's that seems to be a theme.
::Speaker 2
It's easy for me to say because like I've said before, I'm not that special. You know, I've just become this vehicle for other people's good ideas and for the wisdom that other people have given me, either through, you know, consequences or just them taking the time to share their wisdom with me. And so whatever your bandwidth is, if you're collecting really good, positive, wise things in that you're going to become that person, you're going to become that mentor.
::Speaker 2
And it's easy to, you know, who is your greatest coach or who's your greatest mentor now? What do you need to do to emulate them? Well, you have to pick up along the way the same wisdom that they have.
::Speaker 1
Yeah, man, thanks so much for being with us today. How would how would people get a hold of you if someone wanted to learn a little bit more about you or connect to some of the things you're involved? What would they do?
::Speaker 2
Yeah. So I've got my hands in a lot of different things. But in the in the vein of still kind of the Executive Protection Dignitary Protection International kind of thing, I do have a company called Vend, Sonder Vee and Esso and Dealer.com and it's just a it's just a home of the form. And you can submit questions there if you have some interests.
::Speaker 2
But you know, otherwise I'm running in a lot of different directions and that's one thing that always be near and dear to my heart. And I feel like, you know, I may not always be the best answer for people, but I have a good network where I can connect people to that.
::Speaker 1
Yeah. You still have that entrepreneurial spirit, won't you? That's right. You'll have that till the day you die.
::Speaker 2
That's right. That.
::Speaker 1
All right. So, you know, one of the things we do on no gray areas, which is fun, is two truths in a lie. The irony of it, no gray areas. I'm going to ask you to lie to me. We've been listening as an audience to you for about 40 minutes, gotten to know you a little bit. So now we're going to see if you can stump us.
::Speaker 1
Okay, stop me now. Two truths and a lie.
::Speaker 2
I have explored the pyramids. I have canoed in the canals of Italy and let's throw out. I have floated in the Dead Sea.
::Speaker 1
Who? This is tough because you just got to in telling us and I know this about you. You've been all over the world. Pyramids and canals of Italy. Dead sea pyramids are true.
::Speaker 2
That is true.
::Speaker 1
ay. All right, now I've got a: ::Speaker 2
I did not.
::Speaker 1
You didn't? Okay, let me tell you why I did. This is my deductive reasoning. You've been in some countries where I assumed you weren't allowed in Israel because your passport would have been stamped that you were in these other countries.
::Speaker 2
I was on the Jordanian side of the dead.
::Speaker 1
So I was thinking, correct.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. No, actually, it's funny that you say it because there was a period of time when I traveled so much, my passport was full. I had to send it in to get extra pages and all of those got full, but most of them were from Islamic countries. In fact, my visa to Pakistan, says the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
::Speaker 2
Yeah. So there was no going to.
::Speaker 1
You're not going you you land in Tel Aviv. They're not letting you in. So can I say that I was 50% right?
::Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, and you.
::Speaker 1
Were on the right both process. Yes Yeah, we both we both had the same schooling experience so give me that.
::Speaker 2
That's right.
::Speaker 1
Absolutely. Give me a.
::Speaker 2
Six get degrees buddy. Yeah.
::Speaker 1
That's right. That's right. Yeah. So I was thinking correctly when they when you said Floating the Dead Sea, I was like, there's no way he could have gotten into Israel. You didn't you're not Jordanian. I'm sorry. I've always wanted to go to that side. So I floated in the Dead Sea as well. But I'm just looking over it.
::Speaker 2
Oh, wow. That's really surreal down there because it's the basin and you've got the mountains and everything's so quiet. But it's, you know, Jordan was cool because of Petra and you know, that the baptism site of Jesus.
::Speaker 1
Petra. Yeah. That's where for the listeners, that's where the city's like built. Right into the wall. Right to the wall of the cliffs. Yeah. Yep. And then it's like this talk about a defendable place.
::Speaker 2
Oh, yeah.
::Speaker 1
Like everybody had to funnel through.
::Speaker 2
Yeah, these old ravines, I'm sure, caused by water at some point. And yeah, it takes. It's a tough walk down and out.
::Speaker 1
And you doing international security, you were probably look around going this would be a perfect place if you had to defend, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, you got me that was good. That's good one. All right. Well, thanks so much, man. We really appreciate it. Appreciate the lessons that you shared with us. And I hope the audience and myself that we take it to heart.
::Speaker 1
So thanks, my friend.
::Speaker 2
Thanks for having me, Pat.
::Speaker 1
Thanks so much for joining us. And no gray areas. Brian Yates was amazing, wasn't he? My big takeaway was when he said you have to get it done but you don't have to get it done right now. Sometimes the wisest thing you can do is pause and wait. So question for you. When in your life do you need to?
::Speaker 1
Sometimes just hit the pause button comment below like share and subscribe? No gray areas.
