Heres What Society Gets Wrong About God | Ep. 125 with Trent Renner
Join us today on the No Grey Areas Podcast with Lead Pastor and author of The Heaven Project book set, Trent Renner! He sits down to answer and ponder on some of the biggest and most controversial questions society has wrestled with for decades. Questions like: Can we really trust the Bible? How do I know that God exists? Why do good things happen to good people? Trent dives into these deep questions while exploring cultural contradictions, spiritual mysteries, and timeless truths that can transform the way we see life and faith.
In this episode, Trent addresses bold topics — including the Charlie Kirk incident and the state of our world today. He talks about the persecution of faith, what it means to follow Jesus in a divided culture, and whether society is “crucifying Jesus” in modern times.
This conversation is for anyone curious about God, seeking deeper understanding, and ready to wrestle with challenging questions. Be sure to like or comment below if you loved this episode! If you want to learn more or get connected with Trent Renner, visit his website at https://trentrenner.com/home
WEBSITE: https://www.nogreyareaspodcast.com/
INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/nogreyareas_gagliano/
FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/NoGreyAreas
TIK TOK: https://www.tiktok.com/@nogreyareasgagliano
EMAIL: info@nogreyareas.com
YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbnC2rjEumGJhqy54qazFFw
No Grey Areas is a motivational podcast with captivating guests centered around how our choices humanize, empower, and define who we become. This podcast is inspired by the cautionary tale, No Grey Areas, written by Joseph Gagliano. Learn more about the truth behind his story involved with sports' biggest scandal at https://www.nogreyareas.com/
Transcript
Host
On today's episode of the No Gray Areas podcast, we have one of my great friends, associates and mentors, lead pastor and author of the Heaven project books at Trent Reznor joins us to wrestle and answer some of the most asked questions and contradictions about God in human history. Man, the answers Trent gives will blow your mind. Bring clarity to society's most debated questions, and lead you toward a more purposeful life.
::Host
Let's jump in.
::Pat McCalla
Trent Renner's
::Pat McCalla
welcome to the No Gray Areas podcast. We go back quite a few
::Trent Renner
years. We do. I'm going to
::Pat McCalla
give a shout out to, a mutual friend, Brad Hamilton,
::Trent Renner
Oh, yes.
::Trent Renner
That's Starbucks. I remember that. Now, you say that.
::Pat McCalla
he's like, Pat, you got to meet this Trent
::Trent Renner
15 years, 20 years ago, maybe more. Yeah. Wow.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Brad Hamilton,
::Pat McCalla
thank you for introducing
::Trent Renner
Thanks, Brad.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, he knew that. Yeah. For sure. We'll get to see
::Pat McCalla
each other often.
::Trent Renner
We do pick it right back up. I've always appreciated. Respected you looked up to you. It's awesome. Yeah. Absolutely.
::Trent Renner
Very good.
::Pat McCalla
Well, hey, I couldn't do the same,
::Trent Renner
Anybody else?
::Pat McCalla
I'm going to ask you some easy
::Trent Renner
Oh, no questions to get started.
::Trent Renner
Sure you are.
::Trent Renner
So for our audience. And
::Trent Renner
they heard a little bit of this in the intro, but,
::Pat McCalla
you've been a pastor for years, and you've
::Trent Renner
35.
::Trent Renner
Now I'm getting old. 35 years. Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
Good. Well, then you're going to answer some easy questions
::Trent Renner
Okay. Sure. I actually looked
::Pat McCalla
it up. I was looking up like, what are five of the most difficult
::Trent Renner
Oh thanks a lot Pat. Thanks I appreciate you coming over here. Audience. Right. So number one.
::Pat McCalla
suffering. Why do bad things happen to good people? Or if God is good, why does he allow suffering and evil?
::Trent Renner
Probably
::Pat McCalla
question that we
::Pat McCalla
hear all the time, right?
::Trent Renner
It's it's brought up all the time. And so
::Trent Renner
I like to push back and say, how is it even possible that good things happen to people? We live in a fallen world where I like to say it this way if Jesus is who he says he is, then there is a Satan and he is here to kill, to steal and to destroy.
::Trent Renner
And anybody who's doing any kind of good, Satan just hates you. He laughs and mocks all of us when we go through hard times. And sadly, he doesn't always have to be used in a fallen world where we're imperfect, where we're dealing with selfishness, just personal, selfish ambition
::Trent Renner
We tend to destroy each other. Where I think Satan's like, you guys don't need me.
::Trent Renner
You're destroying each other pretty good.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, I really think it's that simple of an answer.
::Pat McCalla
I like how you spun it around the two. So you're saying that the evil in our world is caused by Satan
::Trent Renner
It's not by.
::Trent Renner
God.
::Pat McCalla
by God. And you flipped it around and you said if you actually look around, you should flip that around
::Trent Renner
around.
::Trent Renner
How does anything good. Yeah. And I think people resonate with that.
::Trent Renner
Yeah
::Pat McCalla
losophers and theologians for: ::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
Aristotle talked
::Trent Renner
Sure, sure.
::Trent Renner
Sure.
::Pat McCalla
theologians picked it up and talk. So one of the things that I do a lot of times is in bed before I go to sleep, I think about where did I see beauty, truth and goodness.
::Trent Renner
Kind of goes
::Pat McCalla
to your answer because every single day I can give examples of where I saw something that was.
::Pat McCalla
Good
::Trent Renner
100%.
::Trent Renner
And it's a practice. You you guys talk a lot about habits in this podcast. It's a good habit.
::Pat McCalla
So I like how you answered that
::Trent Renner
All right. Thank you. For you.
::Pat McCalla
How do we know that God exists.
::Trent Renner
How do I know that God exists?
::Trent Renner
Here's here's my initial response.
::Trent Renner
If Jesus is who he says he is like. And if the Bible is what it says it is, which is a fun question to ask. Then when Jesus was being crucified and he was put in the tomb for three days and three nights, where were the apostles? Where were his students? His apprentices? They were in hiding.
::Trent Renner
They were afraid. Even women were being more courageous than were out wandering around. And and so they were in hiding. Jesus then raises from the dead something happens to those 12 apostles that would then 20, 30, 40 years later, Max. They all die torturous martyr deaths. They lost their heads. They were whipped. What happened to those guys that that brought them out of cowards to willing to lay it all down on the line.
::Trent Renner
They had a true encounter with the risen Jesus. That's the number one answer that I look at. Number two answer would be when I read the Bible, the Word of God. It says of itself that it's living and active. It is so accurate. About me. I've read other religious texts. They're not accurate about me. But when I read the Bible, who?
::Trent Renner
It exposes my darkest, inner, deepest things about me. That's how I think God is real. I could answer a third that I don't want to sound like a wacko because I'm not. But I have had three personal encounters with demon possession where
::Trent Renner
people call it exorcisms, and I had to do that. One was with one of my son in laws, and what I saw from the dark side, and what I saw with the power of just mentioning the name of Jesus.
::Trent Renner
There's a spiritual world. It's legit. Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
Those are great answers,
::Trent Renner
Thank you, I appreciate that.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, yeah,
::Pat McCalla
Well, question number three, another easy softball
::Trent Renner
question.
::Trent Renner
For you,
::Pat McCalla
Why does God seem hidden? Why doesn't he make himself
::Trent Renner
obvious? And I just when I
::Pat McCalla
get asked this a lot.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, I was like,
::Pat McCalla
he just came down and he
::Trent Renner
could. If he's. God. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
just absolutely give undeniable
::Trent Renner
proof. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
why doesn't he do that?
::Trent Renner
I holler at God all the time? Just show up. I know you're real. Could you just show up here and please just tell me what to do? Right. And so I look at Scripture and life in three eras. So you've got the Old Testament times where God was physically present. He showed up burning bush fire, cloud pillars, Old Testament.
::Trent Renner
You've got Jesus in the intestinal time, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. He's there in the flesh. We're just the lucky ones. They get the invisible one, the Holy Spirit. And so it's just part of a phase. And I think even though it's frustrating, there's a blessing in the long haul. Jesus says, those of you who have seen me and believe you are blessed, but those who have not seen and yet believe, he's kind of like, whoa, you guys really get it.
::Trent Renner
And so there's no I don't know why. When we start asking why with God, I just look at three phases, which kind of says that might mean if there's only three father, son, Holy Spirit and we're in the Holy Spirit phase, that's part of what people talk about when they say the end times. It's closer,
::Trent Renner
Yeah. We don't know the date or time.
::Pat McCalla
No, that's really
::Trent Renner
good.
::Trent Renner
Well, that makes sense.
::Trent Renner
Makes a
::Pat McCalla
lot of sense. And I think a lot of times when people ask that question right, where they're saying like, why is God hidden? If he would just show himself?
::Pat McCalla
actually see even biblically, historically and
::Trent Renner
yeah.
::Pat McCalla
there were two times where there's a massive amount of miracles and it didn't breed belief.
::Pat McCalla
We think it would.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
Right that during the Exodus.
::Trent Renner
100%.
::Trent Renner
Of those
::Pat McCalla
ten plagues and they're seeing the sea part, and it
::Trent Renner
let's go back to Egypt. How quick.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Yeah
::Pat McCalla
Jesus here, he's walking
::Trent Renner
on shore. Sure.
::Pat McCalla
And yet the majority of the
::Trent Renner
people. Yeah. So
::Pat McCalla
we think that if we could
::Trent Renner
see something like that. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
There's a
::Trent Renner
lot of evidence it might not. Yeah. Yeah, I sure would like to think it would help me, but who knows.
::Pat McCalla
yeah
::Trent Renner
Great question.
::Trent Renner
Yeah yeah. All right. So
::Pat McCalla
how about this
::Trent Renner
one. And you already touched on it a little bit. Okay.
::Pat McCalla
main one that people ask and a lot of our listeners have asked outloud or internally,
::Pat McCalla
can we trust the Bible?
::Trent Renner
Is it a.
::Pat McCalla
contradictions.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Trent Renner
have always challenged while preaching over 35 years. Bring me what you think are your contradictions. They're not. We're going to get into the context and we're going to show that
::Trent Renner
there's no contradictions. And so when I look at Scripture,
::Trent Renner
it is written in a: ::Trent Renner
These people lived on and there's 40 different writers all telling all the same details, all pointing to Jesus. You can't make that stuff up.
::Trent Renner
Over.
::Trent Renner
1500 years. And they lived on three continents. You can't make that up. You can't fake that.
::Trent Renner
when it's all said and done, the guys were willing to die for it. Those 12, you know,
::Trent Renner
and horrible deaths, it's legit.
::Pat McCalla
I want to go back to that
::Trent Renner
because you mentioned
::Pat McCalla
that was part of your first answer. Trent, I think that's such an important that's why
::Trent Renner
yeah,
::Pat McCalla
That's so important to recognize because these guys work. They did think he was who he said he was.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Then he dies. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
then they act like cowards. But
::Trent Renner
Total. And then
::Pat McCalla
where all 12 of them,
::Trent Renner
right.
::Pat McCalla
the one that was replaced by Judas?
::Trent Renner
Yeah, exactly.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
die gruesome death. So for
::Trent Renner
And let's throw in the apostle Paul, who used to travel around and kill Christians for being Christians. And he encounters Jesus on the road to Damascus and completely reverses and becomes
::Trent Renner
He's written now more than right, half of the New Testament.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
In fact, acts two, to your
::Trent Renner
point, yeah
::Pat McCalla
is one of the great examples of that, because it's 50 days after the
::Trent Renner
rise of Jesus. Right.
::Pat McCalla
And Peter says, you saw him. He's talking to the crowd.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. You saw him die. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
and you saw him come back.
::Trent Renner
now. Anybody?
::Trent Renner
He was still dead. All I had to do. That's right.
::Pat McCalla
body.
::Pat McCalla
And they couldn't do
::Trent Renner
They couldn't find him. Yeah, yeah. It's legit. I challenge a lot of people if you're having a hard time believe in Jesus or believe in the Bible, just go researched. Did Jesus raised from the dead and don't use the Bible? Yeah,
::Trent Renner
Go read some secular sources out there. And the evidence is there.
::Trent Renner
You know,
::Pat McCalla
ChatGPT.
::Trent Renner
I did not what is.
::Trent Renner
Very interesting. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
fairly recently. I said,
::Pat McCalla
you're not human. You think logically.
::Trent Renner
::Pat McCalla
So if you look at the death and resurrection of Jesus just
::Trent Renner
from a wow
::Pat McCalla
perspective, is it true? And ChatGPT came and said, historically,
::Trent Renner
there's
::Pat McCalla
more evidence or so much evidence that it actually happened, and then just started listing some of the things that
::Trent Renner
you've made.
::Trent Renner
Incredible. So,
::Pat McCalla
so an AI tool is even looking
::Trent Renner
It makes me want to sing Domo arigato.
::Trent Renner
Mr. Robot. Even the robot believes. Yeah, yeah.
::Pat McCalla
All right. So, question number five here. Why are there so many different denominations?
::Pat McCalla
Christians agree on things?
::Trent Renner
, it's the very first church.: ::Trent Renner
I can be a hypocrite. Every one of us can be hypocrites. So different denominations. It's a simple answer is we are fighting for our own personal preferences. I'm a part of a movement called the Restoration Movement Church. We're trying to restore back to acts chapter two. Get rid of all of that denominational stuff and and I think you just you pick the denominational name, they're all kind of wondering, they're starting to back away from their names a little bit.
::Trent Renner
There's a movement back to Jesus only, and I celebrate that. I, I don't want to be competitive. And if we truly will answer Jesus's prayer in John 17, he says, father, may my followers be one, and may they be so united that the world will believe that you sent me. And so if I'm the devil, I'm going to do everything I can to cause denominations separate.
::Trent Renner
And I'm not blaming denomination, cause division is what I mean to say. And if I can do that, I'm going to prevent a lot of people from giving their lives to Jesus.
::Trent Renner
So that makes sense. I think that's that's a it's selfishness. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
I
::Pat McCalla
Trent, the passage you just quoted. So years ago when I was working with the anti-human trafficking
::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
and Phoenix was, I mean,
::Pat McCalla
cities from around the world were starting to notice what was happening
::Trent Renner
in Phoenix. Well,
::Pat McCalla
because,
::Pat McCalla
multi-sector collaboration, we had the FBI and the
::Trent Renner
police. Sure.
::Pat McCalla
ASU and Grand Canyon University. Over 70 churches were coming
::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
But I remember having a
::Trent Renner
Unity.
::Pat McCalla
left. It
::Trent Renner
unity.
::Pat McCalla
and I left that meeting and got in the car and start driving away. And I actually broke down in tears
::Trent Renner
about the verse
::Pat McCalla
you just mentioned,
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Jesus
::Pat McCalla
said, I pray that they would be one as we are one,
::Trent Renner
That's right.
::Pat McCalla
that the world would know. I.
::Pat McCalla
I remember thinking one of our greatest evangelistic tools.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, I took evangelism classes. Sure talked about.
::Trent Renner
Unity is magic. Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
no wonder there's so many do.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. To your point, right? Yeah. So
::Pat McCalla
many denominations because we have an enemy
::Trent Renner
that does
::Pat McCalla
that if he can dis unify
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
Said a word.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. No. Get it. Yeah. And
::Trent Renner
if we think I'm gonna throw this in here, this whole Charlie Kirk thing that we've experienced in the sense.
::Trent Renner
That the.
::Trent Renner
Unity, the unity is what I think is making everybody kind of scratch their head and go, whoa! Did you know with the hundreds of thousands of people that gathered in Phoenix, there was not one arrest that whole day? We just we just got confirmation. I figured that out last night. Talking to some people are on the inside. Not one arrest was made that day.
::Trent Renner
Think of that unity.
::Trent Renner
Exactly. Yeah. You
::Pat McCalla
think about what we've witnessed the
::Trent Renner
last five years.
::Pat McCalla
And I don't want to get like political so much. But I mean, there's
::Trent Renner
no political thing.
::Trent Renner
There's of course.
::Pat McCalla
can certainly look it there's two different sides. And
::Trent Renner
how they handle the
::Pat McCalla
situations is evident. But what you're describing, though is it's going beyond Republican. Democrat.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
It's we're we we saw hundreds of thousands of people to coming together.
::Trent Renner
Yeah I heard something
::Pat McCalla
like 100 million streams.
::Trent Renner
That's what I've heard to.
::Pat McCalla
streaming it at home and
::Trent Renner
and crowd. Yeah, yeah.
::Pat McCalla
So I don't know, 100 million how many people that translates
::Trent Renner
There's nothing like a tragedy. And I wish we as people could figure it out. You know, we can seek unity without a tragedy happen, to happen. It just takes great discipline and effort and love on all our parts.
::Trent Renner
No, I.
::Trent Renner
Have, and not that I'm.
::Trent Renner
Aware of because I look back, I know.
::Trent Renner
You know, 911
::Pat McCalla
kind of brought us together and this
::Trent Renner
it did together.
::Pat McCalla
And Martin Luther King Junior
::Trent Renner
kind of yeah.
::Trent Renner
How do we make it last.
::Trent Renner
Out of tragedy.
::Trent Renner
Yeah I know sadly I don't think so too. We're all too human. We're all led to too much by personal preference. Selfishness. Yeah, I love it. Jesus says die to yourself. Died to yourself. That's if we would all practice that. That's a habit. You guys talk habits a lot. That would be a good one.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, yeah.
::Pat McCalla
else? You so
::Pat McCalla
when this drops, we're going to be a couple weeks out from the whole Charlie
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Yeah a little bit more.
::Speaker 1
Hey, we hope you've enjoyed this episode so far. Be sure to like and subscribe to not miss a future podcast! Okay, let's get back to the episode.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Well I think everybody will agree there. There's we've seen darkness and there's, there are people who have stepped up call them celebrities who have seen the celebration of the death of a dad, a good man who was trying to do good things. And that celebration. I think it's set off an alarm clock around the world, and time will tell.
::Trent Renner
Time. Tell us all things I like to say. But. But without a doubt,
::Trent Renner
I think the world gasped like, whoa.
::Trent Renner
Whoa.
::Pat McCalla
well put.
::Trent Renner
Maybe for the first time in my life I see. Sadly, I don't see this with judgment. I see a group of people who would crucify Jesus. I've always wondered, how could I be in the crowd and say, crucify that good man, kill that good man. But
::Trent Renner
Charlie Kirk, is not Jesus. I'm just using that as an example.
::Trent Renner
I think the media has done us a dirty deed by giving such short clips about things that he said. I've taken the time over the last
::Trent Renner
few days here and gone into context. It's very, very different and he's a good man. The world is not a better place with the loss of a Charlie Kirk.
::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
But you are do so well put. When you said you. And that's what I'm seeing too. You know, we're definitely seeing a small pocket of people that seemed almost be praising and
::Trent Renner
glorify.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Strange is small.
::Trent Renner
It's a very small.
::Trent Renner
Group
::Pat McCalla
rest of the world seems to be. And I like how you put it there.
::Pat McCalla
Gasping. I
::Trent Renner
gasp like.
::Pat McCalla
wait.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, we need to take a heart check.
::Trent Renner
Here. Look at
::Pat McCalla
ourselves and ask,
::Trent Renner
yeah.
::Trent Renner
Yeah yeah. And I think that's happening I'm always nervous I don't think it lasts very long. I don't want to be cynical. I'm hoping it lasts longer. You know. But.
::Pat McCalla
But you know
::Trent Renner
brutal. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
why I like our conversation today Trent. Because I thought about it right after it happened. And a couple of days after it happened. And I'm starting to see all that, I'm going like I told my wife, I said, sure. This is like, you know, a generation saw Martin Luther King Jr.
::Trent Renner
Right.
::Pat McCalla
Then 911 and then this
::Trent Renner
just going to
::Pat McCalla
be something that this generation will never forget.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
pulled people together.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
what happened with all of those
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Where did it.
::Trent Renner
Go.
::Pat McCalla
ultimate hope is Jesus coming back
::Trent Renner
100% 100%.
::Pat McCalla
we never want to stop fighting for
::Trent Renner
justice, right? Right. We
::Pat McCalla
can see
::Trent Renner
the
::Pat McCalla
of God pushing back darkness in this world.
::Pat McCalla
We see it all. We're seeing it with what's happening right now with the Charlie Kirk thing.
::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
But our ultimate hope
::Pat McCalla
is, Jesus coming back someday
::Trent Renner
It is. And I know some people think that sounds so weird, but if Jesus is who he says he is, he's coming back. And he's been here in love already. I like to preach this a lot. When he comes back, he kind of means business, you know? And so
::Trent Renner
all he wants is for you and me to be his friend.
::Trent Renner
He says there's no greater love than this. The one who lays down his life for a friend. He laid down his life for all of us, declaring us friends. He doesn't want you to follow religious activity. He wants you to be a personal friend. And if we do that, that's where our hope is. Yeah, that's where our hope is.
::Trent Renner
Not in some short term revival thing. We'll take it. But hope is following Christ. Practice in his ways.
::Pat McCalla
wasn't an incredible though.
::Pat McCalla
Watching that service.
::Trent Renner
Oh, wow.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. I
::Pat McCalla
don't know if this is true or not, but I
::Pat McCalla
I don't think I'm off from saying that. Might have we might have set a record in human history,
::Pat McCalla
gospel being shared in one moment with more people than any other time in human
::Trent Renner
history.
::Trent Renner
I think I think you're right. Billy Graham didn't touch it, you know. Yeah. A lot of people say, are you comparing Charlie Kirk to Billy Graham? I kind of him. He's just modern day. I think Charlie Kirk's doing it the more difficult way. He traveled to some of the most.
::Trent Renner
Hostile.
::Trent Renner
Locations in America and around the world and talked truth. And it doesn't matter what he said, he always brought it back down to a foundational level of his belief in Jesus and the following of Scripture. You know, I do.
::Trent Renner
A great
::Pat McCalla
job of
::Pat McCalla
displaying the dignity of whoever he was talking
::Trent Renner
Yeah, I agree.
::Pat McCalla
different opinion, you have a different. But we're having a
::Trent Renner
and what
::Pat McCalla
really wanting to figure out how to have dialog,
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
because that's the only way we work ourselves out of the mess we've gotten into as a
::Trent Renner
culture.
::Trent Renner
So true.
::Trent Renner
Talking to each other in dialog. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
You know, I challenge all of our listeners to go find the one little clip that has done the Charlie Kirk just sound like he was just a big old mean jerk, right?
::Trent Renner
Then go find the actual phrasing. Go find the video, go find it. Go find the context and you will see he's not what he's been made out to be.
::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
Good challenge.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
can I do a bonus question?
::Trent Renner
Sure, please. I
::Pat McCalla
did five hard ones.
::Trent Renner
Who
::Pat McCalla
Let me do a bonus
::Trent Renner
can I have an easy one?
::Trent Renner
Yeah, this is an easy one. I got it. Why is
::Pat McCalla
the church caused so much harm through history, the Crusades,
::Trent Renner
::Pat McCalla
slavery scandals?
::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Trent Renner
Pat, I'm going to sound like a robot here. It's just going right back to sex, money and power. Those three things will trip up a Christian every time. If you think about him. The Bible says a triple braided cord is not easily broken. Right? And so think if you're smart. And I always try to think this sounds weird as a preacher, I'd say the devil is predictable.
::Trent Renner
So I try to think how the devil is going to think he's predictable. He's predictable because we're predictable. And he was around from the very beginning and saw us be created, and he's been watching us for all these centuries. It bell bottom jeans come back. Everything comes back full circle, right. We're that predictable. And so
::Trent Renner
The Crusades, all of that sex money, power. If you have sex appeal, you can attract money and power. If you have money, you can buy power and sex. If you have power, you can demand sex and money. And so the triple braided cord. And if you think about the Crusades, you think about the bad things the church do that has done.
::Trent Renner
There's always a bad apple and sex, money or power has somehow grabbed that person's heart where they fear sex, money and power, where they love sex, money, and power more than they do Jesus. And it just takes over. And we want to control
::Pat McCalla
Trent is such. That's such a powerful statement. Because again, when we look back historically
::Trent Renner
yeah,
::Pat McCalla
even biblically, historically in the Bible, you can't find hardly anybody who had sex, money or power who didn't mess it up.
::Trent Renner
They didn't thrive with it.
::Trent Renner
Not one who started without it. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
and
::Pat McCalla
was a man after God's own heart, but once he got sex, money in
::Trent Renner
power. That's right. Well, he.
::Trent Renner
Did not do well. Blew it over and over.
::Trent Renner
And then
::Pat McCalla
we can go through history
::Trent Renner
see where we Judas.
::Trent Renner
Judas got some money going and wanted some power. I don't know what motivated Judas to do what he did.
::Pat McCalla
us to not have sex, money and power?
::Trent Renner
Well, I don't know. The answer is it's somehow to say because there are people who we all have sex appeal, we all have money, and we all have influence and power. You just gotta die to self every day. You just gotta get up and go. I'm not that great. I'm not that important. I just want to love the people in my lines of sight, my circles of influence.
::Pat McCalla
But isn't it, though, you know, and I hadn't thought about this till we started
::Trent Renner
this, but,
::Pat McCalla
I have often referred to as the upside down, backwards, inside out gospel
::Trent Renner
Okay, that
::Pat McCalla
says if you want to be first, you have to
::Trent Renner
you have to die. That's right. It
::Pat McCalla
flips everything
::Trent Renner
on it. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
So kind of in this context of sex, money and power,
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
what the kingdom of God is, is, is like, oh no, no, no, this is more of a bottom up type.
::Trent Renner
It really is not about
::Pat McCalla
power.
::Trent Renner
It really is. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
It's not about
::Pat McCalla
money.
::Trent Renner
Correct. You know. So. Correct.
::Trent Renner
A good push back on that, not push back. Compliment to that is what Erica Kirk said when she was doing the, at the memorial service. She talked about her relationship between her and her husband and how she wants him to lead,
::Trent Renner
But not be a slave, that kind of a thing. So I've always said to a to a husband and wife,
::Trent Renner
let me put it this way.
::Trent Renner
Any time the church argues about who should be in authority over who were nothing like Jesus. So I've always seen a husband and wife like the shoulders, and Jesus is the head. And the more we focus and try to get to the head, the closer we get in that triangle in our marriage. Does that make sense?
::Trent Renner
Yeah. And
::Pat McCalla
if the audience is the listeners
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
are watching, they didn't see me smile
::Trent Renner
Said that.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. I
::Pat McCalla
love that analogy. So so you're saying when a husband or wife start arguing about who's in charge or who's
::Trent Renner
think of a triangle right now, they're already.
::Pat McCalla
in a bad spot
::Trent Renner
Correct?
::Pat McCalla
and an unhealthy
::Trent Renner
spot, correct?
::Pat McCalla
if they're like shoulders
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
and they're looking to the head,
::Trent Renner
correct.
::Pat McCalla
not talking
::Trent Renner
Churches shouldn't be arguing about I'm over you. You're over me. No it's it. Should we if we're arguing we should be arguing. How can I serve you? How can I out love you. You know how can I? I'll give to you.
::Trent Renner
if we would do that, unity would start developing. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. And then
::Pat McCalla
I could take it back to the marriage. Because you're talking about church. You're
::Trent Renner
Sure. And
::Pat McCalla
I go any time. My wife and I have truly been out serving each other
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
our relationship is
::Trent Renner
fantastic, isn't it? Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
it's when one of us
::Trent Renner
And it can get ugly.
::Trent Renner
Sure, sure.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
::Pat McCalla
So let's get into this. The Heaven project
::Trent Renner
Okay. It's sitting right here. Yeah. Three volumes.
::Pat McCalla
Trent, I cannot imagine the amount of work I coauthored two books.
::Trent Renner
Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
And I look back on that, and I'm like, when I if I even
::Trent Renner
think about trying to do it,
::Pat McCalla
I'm like, oh my goodness, I can't
::Trent Renner
I don't recommend people do it.
::Pat McCalla
this had to be enormous. And these are dense.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. There's a lot. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Yeah there is a lot.
::Trent Renner
five years of work. It was just five years of me just chipping away. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm
::Pat McCalla
pretty steady chipping away
::Trent Renner
It was. Oh yeah. Yeah
::Trent Renner
wouldn't write when I wasn't feeling creative you know. Don't force it.
::Trent Renner
know preaching and teaching. You don't want to force it. Right. So I just was reading through the Bible cover to cover one year and I just I don't remember what sparked it, but I just started writing down every time a physical object was used in Scripture, in the hands of a person, to change the trajectory of people's lives and so the forbidden fruit, the baby basket of Moses, if you know the scarlet cord of of of Rahab and the jawbone of Samson, there's like a hundred, and I forget the number because it's dense.
::Trent Renner
There's a lot in here. I as an author, I go back and I'm reading through it myself, going, did I write that thing?
::Trent Renner
That's good. Can I say that and be humble? You know, and I'm like.
::Trent Renner
I don't remember writing that. But these objects are are tools that we have.
::Trent Renner
And especially as Americans, we have so much stuff around us. And so the theme was when I got all that put together, I got to thinking, what did Jesus mean when he says, store up for yourselves? It's the one time in Scripture where Jesus says, be selfish.
::Trent Renner
Store up for yourselves treasures in heaven and man I my brain. I'm curious. You're curious. Guy two what does that mean? What will be waiting for us in heaven? That's the thesis of this whole little books and not little this whole book series. And so it's this,
::Trent Renner
I think, and I think I'll challenge my, my pastor friends across the country, be careful when we go out and do good, feed the hungry, clothe the naked.
::Trent Renner
I know we're marketers. We want to market. We want to get word out. But Jesus says, if you do something for a reward here on earth, that's the only reward you're going to get. So it's not a bad thing. It's just a good thing. And the enemy of the great is just the good, right? A great deed is when we go out there with no selfish ambition, if we love or serve somebody.
::Trent Renner
And I'm convinced. So this is how the book works in my, my creative mind and
::Trent Renner
what are we going to do in heaven for eternity? When I go out and
::Trent Renner
I'll use Rahab as an example, she just hung this scarlet cord from her window that saved her life. Now she is in the the the profession of prostitution, right?
::Trent Renner
And she honored the Lord in a way, by keeping a secret of the attack that's coming into the city. Well, that scarlet cord ends up saving her life. She gets saved. She merges into the Israelite community. And this is how good Jesus is, that he took the life of a prostitute and her choices and thread her into his own bloodline.
::Trent Renner
Said she's a part of the bloodline now of the Messiah of Jesus himself. So the thesis is this I call it Heaven's Instrument Museum. Him growing in him heaven's instrument museum.
::Trent Renner
So let me ask you this, Pat. Would you and I have studied Scripture just enough that there's still some obscurities about what it's going to be. Heaven. You would say it's correct, right?
::Trent Renner
We're not going to be floating on some cloud playing a harp. God, that sounds more like hell yeah.
::Pat McCalla
I was a little kid,
::Trent Renner
I, I grew up going to church.
::Pat McCalla
don't take me Jesus. I don't want to
::Trent Renner
know.
::Trent Renner
This sounds terrible.
::Trent Renner
Obviously. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
that's where you're going with this. That's not at all
::Trent Renner
That is not even close
::Pat McCalla
for
::Trent Renner
you.
::Trent Renner
You have.
::Pat McCalla
new earth, someday.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Scripture gives us the evidence that God is when he judgment happens. And it's some terrifying stuff when you. But it's some beautiful stuff too. He burns everything off the planet. There's a new restoration. There's there's a remaking of there. There's a bringing of Jerusalem down that's built and
::Trent Renner
it's clear we live on the new Earth
::Trent Renner
We're going to know each other. We're going to communicate. So isn't it at least a possibility?
::Trent Renner
So I can't show you a Bible verse of my creative idea of what we're going to do in heaven, but what are we going to do for eternity?
::Trent Renner
There's going to be a billion plus or more people there easily. What if Rahab, we can actually travel back to the old city of Jericho, where God restores it and we get to sit in a giant circle and we can take turns going to all these different places in the world.
::Trent Renner
And there's a reenactment where there is Rahab herself, and we get to do question and answer, tell us what happened. And remember, there's no bragging, there's no comparison, there's no judgment, no pursuit of power. We're just celebrating what God did in our lives. We can go over to Samson, and he's going to tell us some crazy stories. About what we can go meet Adam and Eve.
::Trent Renner
They're going to come. Maybe we'll come hang out here at the podcast site where Pat McCullough gets to tell a couple stories about, and you're going to have witnesses that came to heaven because of this podcast, and they're going to be in here and say, you know what? I was watching that one interview between you, Trent, I get to add myself in this one.
::Trent Renner
And that caused me to turn my heart to Jesus. And I'm here because you guys talked for whatever time frame this thing is and we can. And then we just do a Q&A with the people in heaven celebrating, doing high fives, all of us pointing to Jesus. None of us, none of us point to ourselves. We point to each other.
::Trent Renner
Thank you man, thank you man. You changed my life. You impacted my life. So
::Trent Renner
the Heaven project is simply this Pat going to church all by itself and just getting a message on Sunday is good, but the enemy of the great is the good. We need to be spending at least four days a week in reading a little bit of Scripture.
::Trent Renner
And so this book is never to read. These books are never meant to replace the Bible. Each chapter you'll see chapter, chapter two Adam and Eve, you're going to read one short chapter, take you five minutes and you're just registering the story, and then you're going to go to the chapter about that in this book, and you're going to hear just some thoughts from me.
::Trent Renner
And at the very end are some personal devotional questions that are going to cause you to think about how can you be a better person in life? And if somebody would take this book set and apply it to their lives, it would take them a year to go through it. It's not meant to read more than a chapter a day, and they're just one and a half pages each.
::Trent Renner
Approximately. We're talking 15 minutes. You'll make yourself better. I hope people will take advantage of that.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, yeah.
::Pat McCalla
Oh, and,
::Pat McCalla
I'm affirming everything you're saying, like they're it's amazing.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Thank you.
::Pat McCalla
like you're going to have to go work through like
::Trent Renner
ten pages.
::Trent Renner
No, no.
::Pat McCalla
But at the same time, it's not like it's it's just fluffy. There's not a
::Trent Renner
it's practical application. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
it will change how you live your life
::Trent Renner
today.
::Pat McCalla
That's what it's
::Trent Renner
And I've written it creatively too to where it's like, oh, I can't wait for this day that that we're going to actually keep using Rahab as the example is make it about Moses and the parting of the Red sea, my God in heaven, reenact that for us to where we could just sit there and celebrate and go, no way!
::Trent Renner
And we all, they say the first sound we make when we enter heaven is, oh, we think we're right down here. We don't know a lot, but when we get there, we're going to be like.
::Trent Renner
Oh my gosh, I was so.
::Trent Renner
Off, right? And I can't wait to find out. So this books about creative imagine yourself in heaven and you having many exhibits yourself that people want to hear your story. And it's not you tell it. People are going, hey, I need you to talk to Pat. Pat? When he was doing that sex trafficking ministry, he changed my life.
::Trent Renner
ocation and I know, how about: ::Trent Renner
Just say, thanks, Pat. You're going to be able to go, let's all just think Jesus together. And it's a beautiful thing. That's what this whole book series is about. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
almost get goosebumps thinking about that. Like
::Trent Renner
how
::Pat McCalla
that's going to
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
again, especially as a guy,
::Trent Renner
I don't know, I
::Pat McCalla
can't speak for women,
::Trent Renner
but yeah,
::Pat McCalla
guy growing up going to church.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. There was
::Pat McCalla
nothing in heaven that I heard growing up
::Trent Renner
That sounded exciting. Exactly.
::Pat McCalla
But as I've studied the mountains, there's a lot of mystery about it.
::Pat McCalla
But
::Trent Renner
yeah, I
::Pat McCalla
told about it or what you're kind of unpacking
::Trent Renner
::Pat McCalla
It makes you go like, oh man.
::Trent Renner
I want to be there. Can you imagine every day getting up and we get to walk around and we get to celebrate each others stories because it is eternity and we are in community together.
::Trent Renner
Work is not an evil thing. Works a good thing. We're still going to have to care for the new Earth, but it's it's going to be minus the sweat of the brow and the thorns in the weeds and the temptation.
::Trent Renner
It's hard to imagine, but it's real and I can't wait.
::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Trent Renner
yeah. You
::Pat McCalla
no where. You're sure no one can
::Trent Renner
Imagine. Yes.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Preparing right.
::Pat McCalla
the imagining part. I think that's such a good part. And that's what you're doing a little bit with this. How does imagination play into
::Trent Renner
or how should
::Pat McCalla
it play into us?
::Pat McCalla
And I'm talking not all of our our listeners are Jesus
::Trent Renner
No that's okay.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Most of them are. Yeah. So
::Pat McCalla
for our Jesus followers, how would you say imagination should play
::Trent Renner
::Pat McCalla
us spending our days
::Trent Renner
and yeah, our future.
::Trent Renner
Well, if you think about what's the number one thing, the very first thing that God, father, son, Holy Spirit did together created creative. And we are made in their image. So therefore we should be creative. Pat, I've always loved and respected you because you are curious. It's what makes you so good at this podcast is
::Trent Renner
just straight up.
::Trent Renner
If I'm being real, there's moments where I'm like, boy, I hope Pat comes through here because I'm about out of a sense. You nailed it every time. With a curious question and you're able to just keep it going. So creativity and imagination,
::Trent Renner
why did we stop using crayons and color books, even grown adults? It's fun. You just kind of do it over your shoulder.
::Trent Renner
Like, I don't want anybody to see me coloring in a color book.
::Trent Renner
that's where all
::Trent Renner
remain a child at heart. Jesus said, if you can't, if you don't have faith like a child, you cannot be my disciple. And some of us in church we get not we, some in church. I've rarely say you. I don't get stuffy.
::Trent Renner
I have a huge spiritual gift of immaturity. It's what I call it the spiritual gift of immaturity. I will always.
::Trent Renner
I'm I'm, I'm. That's not in the Bible. Yeah,
::Trent Renner
but I could use the Bible. Have faith like a child. Yeah. Be playful, be curious. Why do we get so serious and stuffy and angry? That leads us to extremities of killing people, assassinating others. Lighten up. Everybody life short,
::Pat McCalla
yeah.
::Pat McCalla
Oh, and I totally I totally resonate with what you talking about. Fact. Just last night, my wife and I were sitting in our backyard in the hot
::Trent Renner
tub. I
::Pat McCalla
say hot tub because we're in Phoenix, and it was
::Trent Renner
Is this TMI iPad? Come on.
::Trent Renner
Now. No no no no. Our neighbors okay okay. Good. Share in the pot I love it. We were looking.
::Trent Renner
Up at the
::Pat McCalla
stars
::Trent Renner
and
::Pat McCalla
my imagination. We start talking about what what's it going to be
::Trent Renner
like? Yeah. You know what I'm like. Yeah I, I,
::Pat McCalla
you know, I want to I want to go out there someday. And and I'm like, I will
::Trent Renner
yeah. Eternity. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
And
::Pat McCalla
as co-creators.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. That up? Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
And now we're using our imagination
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
creativity. But we're not coming up with weapons to kill each other. We're only doing things to, like,
::Trent Renner
solve problems or
::Pat McCalla
or create ways to go
::Trent Renner
explore what
::Pat McCalla
God made
::Trent Renner
Yeah, I have fun thinking. Is it possible and stuff that people say? Give me a break. That's too childish. Can I swim in the water and breathe underwater like a fish? Can I fly? Can we fly to to can we jump? Jump? You know heaven. Why not? I don't know, and I always ask, will there be technology there?
::Trent Renner
Do we have cars? Do we not? It's a there's a lot of questions. Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
to let your imagination go I think is
::Trent Renner
Have fun.
::Trent Renner
With it
::Pat McCalla
and have fun with
::Trent Renner
it. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
I like how you were creative with this. And you're taking these objects that are
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
throughout, you know what? A time years ago, I was preaching a sermon about, I think it was about David or
::Trent Renner
what.
::Pat McCalla
Wasn't David the grandson or the great grandson of rehab?
::Pat McCalla
I can't remember it.
::Trent Renner
You're right. Whichever the order is, he is directly in that line I imagine. Yes.
::Pat McCalla
and I was saying,
::Pat McCalla
what if at some point a David's mom
::Trent Renner
or grandma
::Pat McCalla
opened a little box and took out this cord?
::Trent Renner
Exactly.
::Pat McCalla
sat down with David and said,
::Trent Renner
Let me tell you a story. I almost guarantee it happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, yeah, I know what
::Pat McCalla
you're doing with
::Trent Renner
That's right. Yeah. You're taking all of those stories. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
making them come alive. In some
::Trent Renner
100%.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. I think the Bible is really intimidating to a lot of people, and for good reason. Right. But my goal was that you'll read through a majority of the Bible if you use these, and it's just going to hit the most vital elements, and it's going to bypass this time. The stuff that I typically speed read. Right. There's some things in Scripture where you can do a little speed reading.
::Trent Renner
God is not offended by that. Get into the stuff that impacts and reveals what's going on in your heart. That's where God wants to meet you.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, that's what I always
::Pat McCalla
liked about you, Trent.
::Trent Renner
the practical.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Appreciate it. Because
::Pat McCalla
again, there's so many times where you're like, don't speed read. There's something in every
::Trent Renner
part.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. No, there's a time to speed read like there's a time.
::Pat McCalla
genealogy, there's a lot of
::Pat McCalla
genealogy list
::Trent Renner
about the one. Yeah. Sometimes you just want to get. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Right.
::Trent Renner
I love that the Bible says there's a time for everything. Yes. And even speed reading.
::Trent Renner
Now that I like that.
::Pat McCalla
What do you think is one of the biggest misconceptions, for Christians in heaven?
::Pat McCalla
maybe we don't even say Christians or Jesus followers. We just
::Trent Renner
say.
::Trent Renner
In heaven.
::Pat McCalla
regarding heaven or our future as
::Trent Renner
believers.
::Trent Renner
I think
::Trent Renner
biggest misconception is, is that we're all going to be like zombie robots just singing Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, no God. When he created the very beginning, he had Adam and Eve in a garden and he spent time with them regularly. He's just restoring that back personal friendship. So it's not this robotic, you know, that I grew up thinking floating on a cloud, playing a harp.
::Trent Renner
And I was just like, are you kidding me? I don't want to go there, you know? And as I pour more into Scripture,
::Trent Renner
passages of Jesus is Matthew: ::Trent Renner
He says, come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. For I am a humble and gentle teacher. You will find rest for your souls in me.
::Trent Renner
Every time I see that here, that read that I get angry because the church and I'm part of the church tends to put more burden and weight.
::Trent Renner
Jesus says also in there, take my yoke upon you, for my burden to bear is light.
::Trent Renner
do churches I. I am no fan of churches that have huge burdens on people. That's not a Jesus following church. He says, come to me who who are weary. He doesn't say, stay the same change that probably be our biggest burden.
::Trent Renner
But the reality is a lot of people think it's very difficult to get into heaven. It's not.
::Pat McCalla
what you mean when you say, get all that religion
::Trent Renner
get the religion out.
::Pat McCalla
and that that's the burden, the burdensome of religion
::Trent Renner
Yes, yes. I want to challenge our listener to consider pursuing Jesus as your best friend. That's biblical. He says no greater love than this. The one who lays down his life for a friend. I've said that already. Right? And then he laid down his life for us, declaring us his friend. And so pursue him as a friend and ignore all that other thick burden, bell tolling.
::Trent Renner
Yoke wearing duty. We don't drink, drink.
::Trent Renner
Discuss or two or go out with girls or do, nonsense drives. It makes a preacher cuss. I want to cause Jesus is your friend. He wants to be your friend. You become a personal friend with Jesus. If you're my personal friend, I don't want to offend you. I want to honor you. If you ask me to do things, I want to obey you.
::Trent Renner
That's what good friends do.
::Trent Renner
If I
::Pat McCalla
do offend you, then we sit
::Trent Renner
Then we're like, hey, dude, are we okay?
::Pat McCalla
mean it when I said that. When
::Trent Renner
That's it. Oh my God, that's it. Pat.
::Pat McCalla
You know, I smiled when you start singing with a friend because it was
::Trent Renner
just last night.
::Pat McCalla
I was fading off to sleep
::Trent Renner
and I was
::Pat McCalla
was just kind of praying, and. And I go, God, how is it that you're the king of all
::Trent Renner
kings? It's
::Pat McCalla
this ineffable God that we can't even begin to describe? And yet you tell me that I can call you my brother.
::Trent Renner
right?
::Trent Renner
Right.
::Trent Renner
So it's like, why don't you bring that up? Because
::Pat McCalla
just last night, I was praying and thinking about
::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
enormity of a God that I can't.
::Pat McCalla
I will
::Trent Renner
never
::Pat McCalla
all eternity. I will never
::Trent Renner
be able to
::Pat McCalla
understand him
::Trent Renner
right and
::Pat McCalla
fully grasp who he is.
::Trent Renner
a
::Pat McCalla
I'm your brother.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
friend.
::Trent Renner
for you.
::Trent Renner
Not 100%. He created us. He calls us his masterpiece, his choice and prized possession to many churches. And Christians walk around saying, we're so unworthy. We're so unworthy. I get that we don't deserve it. But Jesus, God died for us, so we must be worth it, right? I get
::Trent Renner
not worthy, but worth it. We must be because he calls us a masterpiece friend.
::Trent Renner
His prized possession crazy.
::Pat McCalla
difference when
::Trent Renner
you get the
::Pat McCalla
difference, sometimes
::Pat McCalla
when someone's doing that whole I'm unworthy in a in an unhealthy
::Trent Renner
way. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
that that they're forgetting that this God is crazy about them. Wild about
::Trent Renner
Absolutely
::Pat McCalla
my I have grandkids now
::Trent Renner
Me too. Isn't it cool, dude? Yeah.
::Trent Renner
I
::Pat McCalla
little,
::Pat McCalla
grandson or little granddaughter in my eye.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
literally feels like it's going to
::Trent Renner
It's so.
::Trent Renner
Cool.
::Pat McCalla
that's how you look at me.
::Pat McCalla
God,
::Trent Renner
That's right.
::Trent Renner
You know, my bro looks at me. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Last time I saw my little grandson Rhodes, his dad was holding him as I pulled up. As soon as I got out of the car, he comes running arms up. Grandpa. And that hug is so special. That connection
::Trent Renner
God created, that we're made in his image. That's what he wants with us, not this religious tactics, obedience mentality that is part of a friendship.
::Trent Renner
It's got to be led with friendship. Love.
::Pat McCalla
That's
::Trent Renner
So good
::Pat McCalla
about your preaching
::Pat McCalla
over the years. I think, Trent is you've always pushed for that and you've always tried to help people understand that it's complex, but it's also simple.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. So simple. We've over complicated it. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Over complicated. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
And the simple part is you're a child of God
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Absolutely crazy to do to make. Yeah, yeah.
::Trent Renner
That's right.
::Trent Renner
Part of
::Pat McCalla
this heaven project.
::Trent Renner
That's absolutely right. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
some of us or a lot of us. See, heaven is a later thing.
::Trent Renner
When. Yeah
::Pat McCalla
when we talk about, like you doing this project, even in writing this, spending five years, how is this changed your thinking to heaven isn't just for later.
::Trent Renner
No. Yeah. I think Christians make another big say. I ran hurdles in track, 300 meter hurdles, 110 meter high hurdles. If I kept my eyes on the finish line run in the race of the hurdles, I would have biffed it every time, right? So life is about going from conflict to conflict to conflict to conflict all along the way.
::Trent Renner
You want to finish strong. But
::Trent Renner
I was prepared. I don't know if you guys are going to ask me. I'm going to inject it right now that Trent, what's a habit? Because you guys talk habits a lot here. A habit that I try to do every day is finish. We're always remembered by how we leave. We're always remembered by how we finish.
::Trent Renner
So I tell lead pastor, you're not going to be remembered by how you lead. You're going to be remembered by how you leave. And here's the thing. Most Christians think I want to just try to live a good life and finish strong someday. No. Every conversation I have with my, well, wife, there's a moment to finish. I want to finish strong.
::Trent Renner
Every meeting that I encounter, how I drive that day, how I,
::Trent Renner
communicate in this. I want to be remembered by how I finish. So finishing is not something you get to. Finishing is a habit that you practice every day, finish well,
::Trent Renner
I try to practice that every day of my life and I mess up. Sometimes it takes me another day to go back and say, hey, I didn't finish that well with you yesterday.
::Trent Renner
Are we okay? I want to finish well with you, and I try to use that language in my life. It's made me an absolute better person. And what that is in the question you're asking here, Jesus says, your kingdom come, father on earth as it is in heaven. So we're called to bring some heaven down here on earth.
::Trent Renner
And every single one of us, our cars, the microphones, the clothes we wear, the water we can give and share. And if we do that, you're going to impact somebody's life and change their trajectory. And then I have fun and say, hopefully you'll have an exhibit in heaven someday where maybe I can get, you know, curly fries and we can sit and popcorn and I don't know what's in heaven.
::Trent Renner
You can
::Pat McCalla
sit down to your point. This becomes like the scarlet cord that Rahab
::Trent Renner
That's exactly right.
::Pat McCalla
becomes your scarlet cord. And there's a group of us sitting around
::Trent Renner
And say, hey, those books impacted me. Hell, yeah.
::Trent Renner
I'm
::Pat McCalla
in heaven because of
::Pat McCalla
or,
::Pat McCalla
I was a follower of Jesus, but I wasn't all in until I read this.
::Pat McCalla
And then I really
::Trent Renner
Yeah, yeah.
::Pat McCalla
what you're
::Trent Renner
talk.
::Trent Renner
That's the goal. Bring some heaven here on earth. And in every encounter you have practice finishing. Well
::Pat McCalla
had a guy on, a couple months ago who had one of those experiences where he died and went to have
::Trent Renner
I saw that.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, when I was crazy. And.
::Pat McCalla
And it's in, it's a little bit. What you referring to? He said, after that, I realized the veil between heaven and
::Trent Renner
earth is much thinner.
::Trent Renner
It's so beautiful.
::Trent Renner
We have
::Pat McCalla
heaven moments every
::Trent Renner
day. Yeah, yeah,
::Pat McCalla
But what, to your point, those heaven moments that we may miss using your language is is when we're not leaving.
::Trent Renner
correct.
::Pat McCalla
I want to circle back to
::Trent Renner
Okay, okay.
::Pat McCalla
miss this. I think this is so deep. What you said about a lot of times you were talking about pastors.
::Pat McCalla
But I think any of us, we think it's about leading. Well.
::Trent Renner
yeah.
::Pat McCalla
it's about
::Trent Renner
leaving.
::Trent Renner
Well,
::Pat McCalla
even when you said leaving, well, when you explained it because my mind went to. So you're saying I pastor church for 20 years and it's at the end of that 20? No, it's how I left that conversation
::Trent Renner
That's right, that's right.
::Trent Renner
How
::Pat McCalla
person felt by what I said,
::Trent Renner
That's right.
::Pat McCalla
whatever that but that that's the leaving part that you're talking about
::Trent Renner
leaving.
::Trent Renner
Well, we're remembered by how we leave, whether we like it or not. First impressions are powerful. I think the greatest impressions are the last impression. That's where our memory is closest. And I look back at decisions in my life where before I was practicing finish, I did not finish well. And I promise you, I'm not remembered well in those circles.
::Trent Renner
Right. And so finishing well is what matters and where I haven't. I try to repent and apologize and
::Trent Renner
make it up.
::Pat McCalla
tough question.
::Trent Renner
circle back please start.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Speaker 1
As we're wrapping up this episode. Be sure to leave us a five star review. And if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment on something you'll take away. All right, let's hop back into the remainder of the episode.
::Pat McCalla
before we turn on our mics.
::Trent Renner
do you pray.
::Pat McCalla
into my prayer. I prayed and said, hey, God, thank you for Trent. He really use them in my life.
::Trent Renner
And,
::Pat McCalla
Trent may not even know that.
::Trent Renner
from my time in that
::Pat McCalla
moment. I don't know if you remember
::Trent Renner
Okay.
::Pat McCalla
when that, situation over on the other side of town
::Trent Renner
Yes. Well, yes.
::Pat McCalla
You were one of the guys that I went and I sat down with a
::Trent Renner
That's right. I do remember
::Pat McCalla
that. You said
::Pat McCalla
how you leave,
::Pat McCalla
how you end well
::Trent Renner
yeah. Yeah, he's going
::Pat McCalla
to say a lot.
::Pat McCalla
It's not what you did your seven years there. It's how you lead. But then you also said
::Trent Renner
that
::Pat McCalla
said, I promise you whatever decision you make, you're going to have half the people mad that you
::Trent Renner
didn't.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So tough
::Pat McCalla
question. How do we leave? Well,
::Trent Renner
when that's
::Pat McCalla
also true, that sometimes we make a decision that this person thinks is wrong and this person is like, oh, thank you.
::Trent Renner
think my initial response is we must have an audience of one most important or we'll make it three. Father, son, Holy Spirit, we only exist to honor and live for them. And then when it comes to the crowd, the congregation, the circles of influence, your friends don't need an answer. And your enemies even though they're not our enemies.
::Trent Renner
You know, I'm just doing a play on words. Your friends don't need an answer. Your enemies won't believe your answer anyway. So leaving well cannot be up to the opinion. Even of yourself. Even the Apostle Paul writes, I don't even trust my own opinion about myself. The very things I want to do I can't do. You know, the things I try to do.
::Trent Renner
He's it's hilarious, he said, I sound like a madman, right? And I, I resonate with that. So the audience leaving well is about not being a people pleaser, but it's really not that hard for us to make people feel special, to feel loved. It's not it's hard for us to be humble, to say, I'm sorry, I really screwed that up.
::Trent Renner
That's finishing well. Even though the relation might be damaged at least has a bridge for future growth, right?
::Trent Renner
I don't know if I'm answering your question. Your friends don't need an answer. Your enemies won't believe your answer. And the only answer that matters is what is Jesus saying of me? Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
And by the way, that's exactly what you told me.
::Pat McCalla
7 or 8 years ago now.
::Trent Renner
Well, good. Maybe I'm becoming more consistent in life.
::Trent Renner
No, but it was so.
::Trent Renner
Because
::Pat McCalla
because I am a people pleaser by
::Trent Renner
nature.
::Trent Renner
I have tendencies as well. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
I've gotten better at that.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, but
::Pat McCalla
in that time, you really helped me see, like,
::Pat McCalla
there's only one that you really need to make
::Trent Renner
sure. Yeah, yeah.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
And then you told me about the friends and the enemy thing, and
::Trent Renner
I mean. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Interesting.
::Pat McCalla
need to go sit down with all my friends and say, hey, this email they sent out
::Trent Renner
They love you. They trust you. Yeah, right.
::Pat McCalla
And my enemies, I could probably just waste my breath
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Trent Renner
There's nothing you can do. That's right, that's right.
::Pat McCalla
going back to the audience of one, that's
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Some day I stand before Jesus and he's my friend. He's not this mean old judge. That religion teaches. He's a friend. And we're going to have a conversation.
::Trent Renner
he actually says in Scripture, we won't be judged for it, but we were going to be held accountable to everything we've said. And so I see myself standing proud of Jesus and he's like, hey, Trent, I got a list of things here.
::Trent Renner
Things you've said, I need you. Let's talk about those. And I'm just going to reply, Jesus, I've spoken too much, I have one. I'm an idiot, and he's going to laugh and he's going to give me a high five and he's going to say, well done, good and faithful servant.
::Pat McCalla
I have a feeling when I say I'm an
::Trent Renner
idiot.
::Trent Renner
He's gonna smile at me and say, defend me right now. You're not. Yeah. And he's going.
::Trent Renner
To be like, did you just read my mind?
::Trent Renner
Did you read my mind when I went to the cross? That's why I went to the cross. Oh, I love it. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
we're laughing about it. But it is
::Trent Renner
it's so.
::Pat McCalla
will all stand there and it'll be like I made idiot decisions.
::Trent Renner
I said this to
::Pat McCalla
my wife at this time. I did this, whatever it is. And
::Trent Renner
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
all our hope is
::Trent Renner
yeah,
::Pat McCalla
that he's going to go like
::Pat McCalla
it was taken care of at the
::Trent Renner
Yeah. You know I can't help but want to inject in here a little bit. There might be a listener or a bunch of listeners out there going, oh man, I want what they have. I want that personal connection with God. How does that start? How does that begin? I say this, start talking to God. I know you can't see him, I know it.
::Trent Renner
Just start talking to him. Use a journal. God only speaks one language. It's the language of truth. So if you need to just flow out all kinds of F-bombs and cuss words about what you think, what you feel about yourself, about loved ones who have hurt you, about God himself. He's not threatened by you. The dude made the sun, the moon, and the stars, right?
::Trent Renner
Yeah, and he's our friend. He just wants you to be truthful. He says, I know what you're thinking before you even say it. He just wants to have the talk, and he wants you to be truthful. So start telling the truth to God. Even if that is deeply ugly. He will smile that you're speaking the language.
::Pat McCalla
I'm so glad you brought that up,
::Trent Renner
I'm so
::Pat McCalla
so glad you brought that up, because that's good. An audience. Please. Please do
::Trent Renner
that. And love
::Pat McCalla
how you said that. If you want to know where to start,
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Just start talking to God. Yeah, I use a journal a lot. That's a habit I use. And that's a guy. Girls. Are they female? They're just so eloquent in their communication abilities. A lot of guys need to journal. Just don't call it your diary. Call it your journal.
::Trent Renner
Yeah. How
::Pat McCalla
would someone get this? How would
::Trent Renner
how would your audience
::Pat McCalla
the Heaven project?
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
Audience, please, I beg you. I'm telling you, I'm doing that because
::Trent Renner
They you for you. It is so awkward.
::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
so well done. This
::Trent Renner
I appreciate that.
::Trent Renner
And I've
::Pat McCalla
already seen some people. I've been reading
::Trent Renner
through it. Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
I've already seen some people that are making comments
::Trent Renner
about it that's impacting their life. Good promise you
::Pat McCalla
this is going to impact your life. So how would they find
::Trent Renner
This so
::Trent Renner
interesting thing I don't want to use Amazon. Everybody goes to Amazon. You know they take almost 60% of all profit. I spent five years on this and I've made a decision. I'm not in a rush to sell this. I breaks the rules of I think I just want to change people's lives. And so just the heaven project.org or Trent or Intercom will take you right to a website.
::Trent Renner
You can pay with debit, credit card, anything. It's all right there. I personally I would love to sign them. I think it d faces them, but I'd love to sign them and we get them shipped out. I get it pretty fast. And so.
::Trent Renner
The Heaven project.
::Trent Renner
Org, the Heaven project org or Trent reznor.com, same thing. Yeah, a lot of people are going they're catching on the stories because every seventh chapter in here is not a Bible story. It's a life. It's a real life story. For instance, I don't know what our time is here, but there's an Amy in surprise, Arizona who and she's editor chapter.
::Trent Renner
You can read it. She's in her car. She's a single mom. She's had a very brutal life. She got two little kids in the back seat. Important to know. The chapter's called a broken car stereo. And so that's the item that changed her life. She's sitting close to back when the 3 or 3 was not quite finished in the Phoenix Loops, and she was ready to pull out next time a semi comes and just take her and her two kids out.
::Trent Renner
Her car stereo had not worked for a couple of years as she got ready to punch it. Working on the timing, the car stereo kicked in and there was a Christian song. She hit the brakes just began weeping. And I'm telling you this, this woman is remarkable today. But there's every seventh chapter is a chapter like that where people submitted.
::Trent Renner
And I'm asking people, if you have a personal story like that, go to my website or send me an email. I will put the blog in because I want the heaven project stories to keep building. Right? Hitting the mic guys. Sorry. Yeah. And so thanks.
::Trent Renner
For making me.
::Trent Renner
Cry. You big baby.
::Trent Renner
I'm just kidding, I appreciate that.
::Trent Renner
there are some modern day stories that are going to rip your heart out, but they all look back and go, thank you, God, I'm better because of all this today. Yeah. And so yeah, I really it's special.
::Pat McCalla
and I think I wasn't even going to do this, but I think it would be good for our listeners. And I'm going to do this is one challenge I'm
::Trent Renner
going to take. Okay. I'm
::Pat McCalla
going to go. If I had a chapter in
::Trent Renner
there, what would
::Pat McCalla
my what would it be
::Trent Renner
That's my goal.
::Trent Renner
I've
::Pat McCalla
got a couple of things that I can look back on and go like, okay,
::Pat McCalla
that element there, that item there,
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
that's a reminder to me,
::Trent Renner
That's the goal. That's the whole purpose of the Heaven project. Number one, to make us look back and go, wow, God is using me because I think every person, every Christian struggles with this. What is my special purpose? Well, that's an American independent mentality. We all have the same purpose. Who are the people you encounter in your line of sight every day?
::Trent Renner
These are strangers. And who are the people that you encounter regularly in your circles of influence? You've got a circle of influence, a part of this studio. You've got lines of sight in the grocery store. These are people that when you encounter them, God saying, I intend you to be the hands and feet of Jesus, my son to them.
::Trent Renner
like Jesus because he fed the: ::Trent Renner
I can't feed: ::Trent Renner
Yeah, that's all I got.
::Trent Renner
that's the magic. That's all of our purpose. If we do that, that's the good life,
::Pat McCalla
Wow.
::Trent Renner
That's the Heaven project.
::Pat McCalla
one more question before
::Trent Renner
you get into the
::Pat McCalla
part about
::Trent Renner
the story. Okay, I'm to eat some.
::Trent Renner
Challenge.
::Trent Renner
I
::Pat McCalla
Do you have a chapter and do you
::Trent Renner
heaven.
::Trent Renner
So I have a life change story in there. Yeah, that a man with a as a college assistant football coach and a whistle. And he changed my life. I don't know what our time is. The gist of the story was I was a young man, grew up in a very abusive household, got up every day to to see if my mom was alive and walked around with as a little kid, kindergarten, first grade.
::Trent Renner
And remember it like yesterday, hearing her explain to cashiers and grocery store that she fell down the stairs and all of the bruises. And that's what I that's how I so I grew up with some Catholic roots. Never really went. But if you would have asked me, I would have said I was Catholic and I hated pastors and I hated priest.
::Trent Renner
I didn't hate them, I hated myself, I hated life,
::Trent Renner
I didn't want anybody to impact me. So I went. Any time I encountered a pastor, priest or anything, I literally would cut them out. I would push on him, I would I would be a terror to them. And it broke my heart. Every one of them retreated, I mean, every one of them, until I met Kevin Ingram, who was a brand new youth pastor in Oakley, Kansas.
::Trent Renner
And he, he, as the youth pastor, volunteered as assistant football coach. And when I found out it's my freshman year, when I found out this new guy was a youth pastor, I approached him. It's like, well, I don't even remember what I said. I just remember Kevin Ingram as a pastor grabbing my facemask, pulling me in and going, are you Trey Renner?
::Trent Renner
I've heard about you. Is that all you got? Is this how you're going to treat your teammates? You're better than that. I believe in you. And we stuck around the end of the practice to do an ot II opportunity to improve
::Trent Renner
and it ends finish. Well, it ends with throwing up.
::Trent Renner
Yeah.
::Trent Renner
And so
::Trent Renner
I was so intrigued by this man of God who kicked my butt. He literally. And so I went to youth group that following weekend. And there's a circle. It's a small town circle of 20 friends in there. They did this fun game where you get a sheet of paper and you get to go to your friends.
::Trent Renner
Pat, can you do this? If you can't sign, if you can, then you go over, can you do this? And then you sign? Well,
::Trent Renner
Timothy, a friend of mine came and said, drink. Can you quote all the books of the Bible out of order? And I'm like, I'm not going to tell anybody what I can. Of course I can do that.
::Trent Renner
Well, I didn't know Kevin was going to make us do it at the end of youth group. So we go around and all these people are doing and he's about two people for me, and I'm sweating bullets. I know nothing about the Bible. I didn't even, I don't know existed. And I'm thinking, here's his chance to crucify me.
::Trent Renner
He's going to embarrass me in front of all my friends, two people before me. He said, hey, everybody, I want you to know we're kind of out of time. Sorry, guys. We're not going to get you. Maybe we will next week or sometime down the road. And he kind of looked at me with the nod and it changed my life.
::Trent Renner
I was baptized soon after. It's all I needed. I had never read the Bible. I had hated priests and pastors. It just took one follower of Christ to be bold, to be not weirdo, just be natural and normal and authentic. Hold me accountable. And when given the opportunity to crush me, he chose to love me. And that changed my life forever.
::Trent Renner
He's now the president of Manhattan Christian College, the college where I actually graduated from. Kevin Love, that guy.
::Pat McCalla
So to your point, almost having a whistle or something hanging around or in your office.
::Trent Renner
Every time I see one. What do you think I think of? Yeah, that's bringing heaven on earth. And we all have that. The Bible calls us all pastors and priests. If you're a follower of Jesus, and therefore we all have things around us that we can use to bless others, that's all Jesus says, hey, just die to self.
::Trent Renner
Put others first. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
Well, two truths and a
::Trent Renner
Okay.
::Trent Renner
Three statements.
::Pat McCalla
It's ironic because this is no gray area, and I'm going to ask you to lie to
::Trent Renner
but it's a fun way for us to get to know you.
::Trent Renner
Every preacher loves to give permission to lie. Come on.
::Trent Renner
Yeah,
::Trent Renner
would be a terrible poker player, so I'm doing everything I can here to to have some poker.
::Trent Renner
This.
::Trent Renner
I,
::Trent Renner
freestyled into the ocean to rescue a sea turtle.
::Pat McCalla
Okay.
::Trent Renner
'm the independent owner of a: ::Trent Renner
And
::Trent Renner
on the collegiate level, I was a national champion soccer goalie.
::Pat McCalla
I'm going to do
::Trent Renner
this backwards. I almost always try to narrow it
::Pat McCalla
ting one of them. So I have a: ::Trent Renner
sure. Sure.
::Pat McCalla
go straight for the lie this
::Trent Renner
Okay.
::Pat McCalla
And the reason I'm going to is because I know you played basketball, so I'm going to say the goalie is the lie because you were you were at a national level, but it was basketball.
::Trent Renner
That is that is correct in the sense that I was a basketball player. But one year at Manhattan Christian College, their goalie.
::Trent Renner
Hurt, got.
::Trent Renner
Me, I stepped up.
::Trent Renner
I got you, dude. I got to be the goalie.
::Trent Renner
And we beat a Canadian team. Best out of three for the national championship. Never played soccer my whole life. It was really fun. Is really cool.
::Trent Renner
Okay. All right.
::Pat McCalla
okay, so what was the lie,
::Trent Renner
not an independent owner of a: ::Trent Renner
So that was a little tweak of a lie.
::Trent Renner
I made it.
::Trent Renner
Tough with it because.
::Trent Renner
I know.
::Trent Renner
Yeah, correct.
::Trent Renner
Correct.
::Trent Renner
Did the farm.
::Trent Renner
Right? Right. I wish it were all mine. My sisters still farm farming it, but we're we're five owners of it. Yeah.
::Trent Renner
Well thank you.
::Trent Renner
So I love you, man.
::Trent Renner
Yeah yeah yeah.
::Pat McCalla
this is the Heaven project. Please. Audience, reach out to Trent.
::Trent Renner
Thank you.
::Pat McCalla
books. It will. It will change you. And,
::Pat McCalla
I appreciate our conversation today that
::Trent Renner
I've enjoyed it immensely.
::Pat McCalla
that you've had in my life, just
::Trent Renner
Thank you. And ditto
::Host
While Trent Reznor challenge us to wrestle with big questions and lean deeper into our faith. This episode reminds us that seeking truth in our life matters. So remember, as you go into your week, we make our choices. Eventually our choices make us. We'll see you next time on no gray areas.
