How to Maintain Healthy Relationships: Q&A with Sharmin McCalla | Ep. 58

:: 00:00:05

Speaker 1

What is one of the most important decisions that you make once in your life, but then end up making every day there after? Today on the No Gray Areas podcast, we answer that question. You won't want to miss it. Catch it now.

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Speaker 1

So today on the No Creators podcast, we have a very, very, very special guest. Anybody who has heard me speak, they know that I will often joke about, well, this is my favorite passage, and I'll say, this is my favorite favorite passage. I mean it, but I really mean it this time. This is my most favorite person in the entire world.

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Speaker 1

My wife, Charmaine McCullough, she's joining us on the podcast. Welcome.

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Speaker 2

Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, Good to have you here. So we're going to do a podcast today about marriage. Some people asked us about this. We were forced into this. You were? I was.

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Speaker 2

Totally forced into this.

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Speaker 1

Because this is your favorite thing to do is not.

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Speaker 2

Cup of tea at.

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Speaker 1

All. Yeah.

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Speaker 2

So I apologize in advance for anything that I may or may not say.

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Speaker 1

Well, what people don't know is I did public speaking for a lot of years and they don't know that you always threatened by life. Said if you ever call me up on that stage, that is.

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Speaker 2

Absolutely 100%.

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Speaker 1

True. So you're on the stage right now. There's no audience. You're fine. Well, this fits into the No Go Areas podcast because it's about the power of choices, the complexity of choices. And I'm going to get into some statistics in a moment. But the biggest choice that anyone will make in this life is their spouse who they marry, and then day to day the decisions they make on on what they do with their marriage, how they grow that marriage, or how they can hurt that marriage.

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Speaker 1

So when we talk about the complexity of choice and the power of choice, there's no choice that you're going to make that's more important than your marriage and how you fit into that marriage. But the statistics I'm going to show you actually gave to me recently. So we got to start with this, though, because people have to know our story.

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Speaker 1

We got we have an interesting story we always talk about. It's kind of a fairy tale story. We met what year or.

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Speaker 2

How we were in sixth grade.

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Speaker 1

We were in sixth grade, right? So it was love at first sight? No, not really. We'll get into that in a moment. That's another question that we have. But we started dating our sophomore year in high school. Our first date, though, was interesting. This will show people how young we were telling a little bit about our first date.

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Speaker 1

Right?

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Speaker 2

Our first date was we're as well. We were both sophomore in high school. And you did not have your driver's license yet. So I lived about a half hour out of town where the school was. So we had to ride the bus home with me. And then we waited until my mom got home from work. My brother and sister were with us and at the house.

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Speaker 2

And then when she got home from work, then we left for our date because I could drive, but I couldn't.

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Speaker 1

I had.

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Speaker 2

My license and you did.

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Speaker 1

Not. So our first date, we. I had to take the school bus home with you and wait and then go on a date with you. Because you could drive and I could drive. That shows people how young we were, but we kind of liked each other. And sixth grade, right? We had that instant crush. You remember how much I tried to impress you those early years?

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Speaker 2

I do not actually remember how much you tried to impress me, but I like to hear the stories because I just don't remember.

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Speaker 1

There was one time we were out at recess. I wanted you to see what a great athlete I was. And so it was snowing out and it was right at the end of recess. And I don't remember who was one of our friends. Right. He throws his pass and I'm running and I'm sure you're watching me. I just know that you're standing over there doing nothing at recess but watching me.

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Speaker 1

Yes. Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 2

Of course. Of course.

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Speaker 1

And I'm running as fast as I can and I just lay out for this because it's way out there. And and I'm just you can picture me. I look like a hero. Just fly into the air and I catch this football Superman and I bring it in. And apparently, right before recess, a dog had dropped his right there.

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Speaker 1

And I went sliding through this fresh dog all over me. Since I lived a long drive from down to I had no change of clothes. My mom couldn't bring a change of clothes, so I had to go in from recess. I had to clean up as much as I could. But everybody in class and it's funny you don't remember.

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Speaker 2

I wish I remembered it because you probably stunk.

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Speaker 1

Oh, I did. Everybody made fun of me the whole rest of the day. And I thought I lost my chance with her. That was it. I lost my chance with her. But couple of years later, we started dating. Well, how did I propose we were held.

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Speaker 2

When you proposed? Yeah, we were. Were we 18? No, I think I was 19. I think I was 19.

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Speaker 1

Barely.

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Speaker 2

You know, I was only 18. I hadn't had my birthday yet.

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Speaker 1

You're right.

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Speaker 2

I was only.

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Speaker 1

Eight, right? I had just turned 19. We got married when we were 19. But. But I had when I proposed to you were January, January 6th. You did not see that coming, right?

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Speaker 2

So yeah, I did not see that coming. We were out really late the night before and it was usually me and all of your friends and we were out ice skating at an outdoor rink and it was gorgeous. Like the snow was coming down. It was beautiful. And then we went back to the apartment that you shared with friends, and we were just hanging out and having pizza and whatever really late because your friends were making food.

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Speaker 1

So. Yeah.

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Speaker 2

Yeah. Do people know that in your apartment you used to have keep all of your pizza boxes and you had a whole stack of pizza boxes, like almost up to the ceiling?

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Speaker 1

Almost up to the ceiling two or three times. Yeah, that's true. It was unhealthy. He worked with France.

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Speaker 2

Yes. Yes.

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Speaker 1

So but yeah, we're we were out skating till two in the morning. Yes.

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Speaker 2

You think we're talking with a friend of yours and you just said here, let's go for a drive and it's like two in the morning. And I said, I really need to get home. And you're like, Well, let's just go for a drive first. And it's like, okay, so we started driving around and you stopped at a gas station and you didn't tell me what was going on.

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Speaker 2

And we ended up it was really icy out. And so we ended up in the Albertson parking lot and you started doing.

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Speaker 1

You can't get much more romantic than.

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Speaker 2

This. You started doing like donuts. If people don't know what donuts are, look it up in.

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Speaker 1

The car in circles, right.

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Speaker 2

On the ice. And you did one and you stopped and you looked at me and you pulled a fake rose from the gas.

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Speaker 1

All they had at the gas station.

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Speaker 2

You're out of your coat and you handed it to me and you said, They say if you buy a rose, she'll love you forever. Will you marry me?

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Speaker 1

Yeah.

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Speaker 2

And I thought you were kidding. I thought you were joking. I wasn't. I didn't think you were serious. And then I quickly realized that you were serious. And it was very, very sweet. And I went home. I couldn't quit smiling. In fact, my mom the next morning was like, Why are you so happy?

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Speaker 1

Because I told you, you can't. I couldn't see your parents because I vowed that I would ask your dad. I vowed to myself that I would ask your dad first. Your parents permission. Yes, and I hadn't, because that was.

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Speaker 2

It was very spur of the moment.

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Speaker 1

It was very spur of the moment in the sense of I was thinking that we had to you know, the typical thing we got away to were to wear through college and all of that. And the reality of it hit me that we probably wouldn't stay together because I was going to go away to college. You were going to stay there.

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Speaker 1

Long distance relationships usually don't happen. And so kind of spur of the moment. I just yeah, I'm just going to ask her to marry me. Mm. So here we are. How many years later?

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Speaker 2

31.

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Speaker 1

31 years of marriage? No, we actually yesterday when we were talking about this, we had to pause and make sure it was 31 and not like 32. Right? Right. Yeah. We always.

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Speaker 2

Said.

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Speaker 1

Well, this is why this podcast is so important again, because it fits with the complexity of choices, the power of choices. You actually, Sharman, you sent me a statistic the other day in those data on who we spend our time with over the course of our lives. So I want the audience to imagine that they're seeing a graph time spent with parents and siblings.

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Speaker 1

It's it peaks in childhood and declines after age 20. So you can actually picture this graph in your mind of this of the time spent with some time spent with parents and siblings goes up at 20 and then it just drops off. Time spent with friends peaks at age 18 and declined sharply to a low baseline time spent with children peaks in your thirties and declined sharply.

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Speaker 1

So obviously you spend a lot of time with them, drops a little bit, but then at 30 time spent with co-worker's steady during the prime working years, 20 to 60 is basically the same. Here's what's interesting time spent with the partner trends upward until death which means the person that you're going to spend whoever you, your spouse, whoever you're asked to marry this year, spend the rest of your life with, you're going to spend more and more and more time with them.

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Speaker 2

That is definitely been true in our relationship.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2

Especially once your kids.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. So leave.

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Speaker 2

Home.

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Speaker 1

You better like that person, right? That's true. That's true because it has been true with us. I mean, we you know, we knew each other since sixth grade. We dated in high school. We get married at 19. We start a family. I mean, here we are now, 31 years later, we have three kids, two amazing son in law, a son in law and a daughter in law, and then six grandkids.

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Speaker 1

But we're finding that we're spending more time together now than we really have in our entire married life.

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Speaker 2

That is very true. Definitely.

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Speaker 1

So it indicates the importance of making sure you choose the right one, and then you make good choices along the way on having a happy marriage. So one of the things we want to do, we're going to get into some questions that the audience sent in, but we want to play a newlywed game for not so newlyweds. All right.

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Speaker 1

Okay. So do this. Here's our Andrew. I'm going to read a question and then I'll just count down three, two, one. And we're both going to give who we think the answer is. Okay. All right. And we'll do ten of them. And since we're both competitive, we're going to keep score on this. Okay? Okay. All right. And we're going to have to mutually agree who won, which is actually good.

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Speaker 1

Everybody's going to listen or watch.

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Speaker 2

We can agree to disagree on something.

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Speaker 1

Would you ever fight right now? All right. Here we go. Who is more organized? 3 to 1, Sherman. Who is the better? Cook 3 to 1. Meaning who?

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Speaker 2

Unless it's grilling or the smoker, then it's absolutely you, because I don't touch that.

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Speaker 1

So, like, once every two weeks, I show my cooking skills.

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Speaker 2

But no, you're very good.

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Speaker 1

I'm getting good at that. But that's about all I can do. And pumpkin pie made a really, really killer.

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Speaker 2

Pumpkin pie? Yeah.

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Speaker 1

All right. Who said I love you first 3 to 1. You know who is the better driver? 3 to 1. Me? No, no.

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Speaker 2

Yes. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1

No. Oh, I.

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Speaker 2

Let's talk about tickets.

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Speaker 1

Oh, well, that doesn't mean that just means I'm a fast driver. Doesn't mean I'm not a good driver. All right, so that's one one for me. We'll agree to disagree on that one. Who is the most routine oriented 3 to 1 major who is always right, 3 to 1. You okay? Okay. This this right here would be a good podcast because we're see, and there's two questions here that I'm sure every married couple would would most married couples would come to.

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Speaker 1

It's what we did split decision on that one Who spends more money 3 to 1 charge you. Oh no.

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Speaker 2

Well no. And the reason here's the reason I would say that the reason I would say that is because usually when you buy something, it's like a lot of money. And I usually buy like smaller things and I'm usually buying it for other people.

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Speaker 1

That's true. I know, but it's just who spends more money. So think about how you are with gifts. My wife for the audience.

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Speaker 2

But aren't the gifts technically from us?

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Speaker 1

Yes. Yes.

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Speaker 2

So.

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Speaker 1

But who usually buys them? The the audience needs to know that my wife's favorite thing is to buy gifts for people you love. To buy gifts for people, especially family.

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Speaker 2

I do. Even I sometimes stress out about it. But I would say you spend more money.

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Speaker 1

Okay, okay. We're not doing really well on this game. All right, here we go. Who is more likely to binge watch a show on Netflix? 3 to 1? Sure. Yeah. Who is most likely running late? 3 to 1 part. Yeah, well, that's.

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Speaker 2

Absolutely.

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Speaker 1

You. It's an easy one because your little mantra for life is.

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Speaker 2

If you're not early or.

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Speaker 1

Late. Yes. Or you often will say, if you're early, you're on time. Yes. Obviously, you love to say. You always say that to our kids, too. Yes. All right. Last one. Who is more of a daredevil, adventurous 3 to 1. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So there was really three of them that we we disagreed on. So we'll fight about this later on.

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Speaker 2

Oh, there's no fight.

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Speaker 1

Who is always right?

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Speaker 2

There's no fight.

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Speaker 1

You said we'll just have to.

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Speaker 2

Agree to disagree.

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Speaker 1

Yes. Okay. That's part of marriage, though. Yes, that's true. Of. All right. So some some questions submitted by the audience. And I'm actually excited about this because I do think you and I talked about this recently. In some ways we feel like why do we have a platform to talk about this? Like we're not marriage counselors or this is in our specialty.

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Speaker 1

But it was interesting, a friend of mine asked me recently, this was just a week or two ago, two weeks ago, he said, What would you rank your marriage on a scale of 1 to 10? And I said, A 9.5. And I told him, I said, I think my wife would give it a seven, maybe an eight.

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Speaker 2

I think I said an eight. Did I say an eight? Yeah, I don't even remember now. Yeah.

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Speaker 1

But he told me when I said that he goes, you know, you guys are way outside of the typical I mean you people that have healthy marriages wouldn't really rank. There's that high And it's not to say we don't have a perfect marriage by any means, and we're still working through it or two on were two human beings that still have our fights.

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Speaker 1

But I do think there's we have something to offer, and especially you do, because anybody who got to know Sherman McCullough would know that your husband adores you. You have say.

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Speaker 2

Okay, don't start, please.

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Speaker 1

You have three kids that worship you and you have six kids that absolutely adore you and a son in law and a daughter in law that couldn't could never dream of having a mother in law is amazing as you so cute. That is why you have a lot to offer with this is I think there's a lot of young people that may be going in a marriage should be going, I want a marriage like that someday.

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Speaker 1

I want my kids to to look at me like they look at you someday. I want my grandkids someday to adore you, me, like they your grandkids adore you. So I think we have things to offer here. So these are questions that were sent in by the audience, and we're just going to talk through some of them. Okay?

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Speaker 1

Okay. So was it really love at first sight? Sixth grade. You were late to school. You walked in. I was already in class, sitting down, small rural community in Montana. So we had our graduating class from high school was 18. So the audience knows when we say small, we're talking small school. But you're the you're the new girl at school and you walk in and I glance up and I'm like, okay, cute.

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Speaker 1

And you got on the bus later and you said, Oh, he's cute to your sister. And then denied it when she told everybody. But is that love at first sight?

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Speaker 2

I would say no. I would say that we thought each other were cute, but I wouldn't necessarily say that it was love at first sight because I didn't know you. I think if you really love somebody like really, truly love somebody, I think you've gotten to know them.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. Who they are. Yeah. And why would you say that? Like, why? Why would you say you can't really love someone until you really know them? Because there's a lot of people that would talk about love at first sight or our story. It's kind of a fairy tale story. They would say, Oh, you guys love each other right away.

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Speaker 1

We've never dating Buddy else. We got married at 19 and the first moment we saw each other, we like each other. But you would say that's not love. No, I would agree. We've talked about this many times. We've said that was liking or infatuation. I think someone can look across the room or prosecutor on our.

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Speaker 2

Cross.

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Speaker 1

And go, Yeah, and go, I think they're cute or I want to get to know them more. But that's just infatuation.

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Speaker 2

That's attraction.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, attraction. But it's not really love until you've gone through some crap together, right?

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Speaker 2

No, that's true. Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 1

Like, you can almost imagine, like the audience can imagine, like a U-shape. And over here it's attraction or infatuation. And then you go down and then you get into crap. Or we could use another word and bleep it out. And then you come back up the other side. And that's what love is, is you've worked through some stuff we've talked about, I'm sure.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. All right. Number two. So it wasn't love at first sight, but it was attraction at first sight. Number two, what is something you wish you could go back and tell your newlywed self after knowing each other for 40 years and being married for 31 years? If you could go back and talk to Shaman at 19.

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Speaker 2

I would say figure out how to communicate with your spouse, whether that's seeing a counselor or not, because you're in trouble or reading a book or figuring out, okay, when we do have problems, let's agree on these are some steps that we're going to take to either talk about it, communicate about it, or figure it out. That is one thing that I would suggest.

:: 16:34:01

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. Because we just had to we just had to kind of figure that out right on our own. Yeah.

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Speaker 2

So it was still I'm, I'm totally a work in progress on that whole.

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Speaker 1

Me too. We went, well you just had a, we just had a good little disagreement a couple of weeks ago and yesterday the communication. Yes, we did. 31. You're known each other for almost 40 years and 31 years later. And we're still.

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Speaker 2

Took us five days to talk about it.

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Speaker 1

Yes, it did. It did. So if you could go back to it, Shaman, 19, you're about to get married or you've been married for a couple of months, you would want to say, Hey, take some time. Whether it's going to a counselor, reading a book or figure out, but learning, working on how to communicate really well. Yeah, Yeah.

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Speaker 1

Anything else that you would say to a shaman at 19.

:: 17:19:20

Speaker 2

That it's okay to set boundaries even between you and your.

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Speaker 1

Spouse? Yeah.

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Speaker 2

One of the things that I learned.

:: 17:26:07

Speaker 1

We're both smiling and Yes, well, one of the things a lot of audience just listening to, they can't see you smiling so good.

:: 17:32:02

Speaker 2

Well, well, one of the one of the things that we learned, actually, when we were walking through a book with a group of friends, the Boundaries book had to do highly.

:: 17:41:10

Speaker 1

Recommend.

:: 17:41:21

Speaker 2

It. Highly recommend that book, because you think, Oh, these are like super serious. And it's like, no, these doesn't don't have to be super serious boundaries because the one that really made a difference for me was you might have a terrible day at work or you're just really grumpy for some reason. And I would take I would take that on.

:: 17:58:17

Speaker 2

I would take it personally or I would be like, and then all of a sudden it's affecting my day, it's affecting my attitude, which then affects the kids and everything. And I realized after we read that book that I do not have to be grumpy just because you're grumpy. I can say, Man, I'm really sorry you had a really crummy day, but I can choose.

:: 18:20:17

Speaker 2

I can still choose not to have a crummy attitude and take on your problems because, number one, I can't fix them. And there are your problems and it's your attitude. And I can't fix that. Yeah, you have to fix it. But that we were. We were always into marriage.

:: 18:35:05

Speaker 1

Before I was problem with that, wouldn't you say? We were ten years in a marriage that or more now.

:: 18:40:08

Speaker 2

Probably. Probably, yeah.

:: 18:42:01

Speaker 1

Ten plus years. The reason that if they're watching this and not listening, they saw smiling when we brought this up. And the reason we're smiling is because when we were going through that book together and that was one of the boundaries that you put out there, a big one for you. And it pissed me off early on because I'd come home and I'd be angry and grumpy and you would used to get Granger grumpy with me.

:: 19:00:12

Speaker 1

It was kind of like I'd bring you down to my level and all of a sudden my wife's changing and she's still going to the house, like whistling and happy and I'm mad, and I'm like, What? You should be mad with me. And it was so something we just kind of had to work out. But right, that was a great book.

:: 19:16:08

Speaker 1

And now I would highly recommend that for really anybody.

:: 19:18:21

Speaker 2

Oh, absolutely.

:: 19:19:15

Speaker 1

Especially in our relationship.

:: 19:21:03

Speaker 2

Yes. Because it doesn't it's not even just for your marital relationships. It could be friendships, family. They offer different books for different.

:: 19:28:22

Speaker 1

Yeah. I think the thing that I jotted down when I was thinking through that question, what would I go back to the 19 or 20 year old Pat and say, I would go, This is going to go really, really fast.

:: 19:39:17

Speaker 2

Oh, that's a good one. It's true.

:: 19:41:20

Speaker 1

So soak it up. I don't think you and I have talked about this a lot because we just made it into our fifties recently. We're both 51 now. I don't think we we didn't it's not that we thought people were lying to us when they said that. And then I'm saying this to anybody who's in their twenties and thirties and early forties right now.

:: 19:58:05

Speaker 1

You can't know until it happens how fast it's going to go.

:: 20:01:01

Speaker 2

That's very true. That's very true. Sometimes you just have to experience it in order to fully wrap your head around.

:: 20:08:12

Speaker 1

Yeah.

:: 20:09:12

Speaker 2

How it feels.

:: 20:10:15

Speaker 1

One of the quotes that you and I have really grown to connect with and go, Yeah, how true that is, is in your twenties and thirties. Sometimes the days are long and the years are short, Right. That's true. Mm. So especially for, especially with little kids. Yeah. Because you, Yeah. You wanted to stay home with the kids and I love that you did and you enjoyed those years, but you had some long days because of it, but all of a sudden it felt like we blinked our eyes and they're leaving home.

:: 20:39:19

Speaker 2

They have their own starting their own families.

:: 20:41:09

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. So I would say to I tell my young self treasure the journey because it's going to go fast. Yeah. And I'm sure anybody who's 60 or 70 listening to us said, you have no, you have no, it's going to just wait. Yeah. No. Yeah. All right, here. That next one. What special role has your faith in God played in your marriage?

:: 21:01:21

Speaker 2

Probably one of the biggest things for me is hope, because when you're in the middle of something that's either frustrating or even just family issues or marital issues, I guess we're talking about marriage. But there's just there's just hope. There's hope for reconciliation. There's hope for for change, for forgiveness. There's hope for for joy and just a renewal.

:: 21:25:17

Speaker 1

Yeah, I wrote down forgiveness is a big one for me. And you know, you've heard me tell this story many times, but this is early in our marriage and we we've moved to Chicago. So we're 19. We get married in Chicago, have no job, no place to stay, no car savings and no car. And so we roll into Chicago as 19 year old, both of us from rural Montana.

:: 21:47:07

Speaker 1

And we've got three days before the U-Haul has to be back. And we got to find an apartment. We got to find jobs.

:: 21:53:10

Speaker 2

Nobody would rent a hotel room for us because we were only 19.

:: 21:58:15

Speaker 1

Yeah, we had to be 21 there. And remember, I got so angry at that manager of the hotel because we drove back like Miles, just trying to find a hotel to stay at that. Finally, let me talk to the manager. Manager comes out like you tell me. And you mean to tell me that I could join the military and go overseas and get my head blown off, But I can't rent a hotel room.

:: 22:16:02

Speaker 2

With my wife.

:: 22:16:18

Speaker 1

But we finally did rent one and we found out why they rented it to us because it was a dive disgusting place. And I went in to get ice later and the guy's checking someone else and he's like, Did you want the whole night? Raider's A half night rate? I'm going where we stay. So, yes, those were those were early years.

:: 22:33:15

Speaker 1

But anyway, we have a disagreement early on there. We're living in Chicago and I'm driving into work and I remember thinking to myself, I'm right this time. And I still look, I don't remember what it was about for sure, but was one of those times where obviously we have a lot of disagreements. We've had a lot disagreements. Sometimes you were right, sometimes I was right.

:: 22:49:15

Speaker 1

Sometimes it doesn't really matter. But in this case, I was so sure I was right and I had done the dangerous thing and I count count. I said I said sorry the last four times. It's her turn. But I remember that little verse in Ephesians, Forgive us, Christ forgave you. I remember thinking myself, Oh my gosh, I would have God counted.

:: 23:06:19

Speaker 1

I would have got counted and said, Have forgiven you enough times. You're done. So he didn't ask us to forgive like we humans forgive. He said, Forgive us. I forgive. So that one's been a huge one for me. I know you've had to forgive me a lot more. I've had to forgive you. But that was one of them.

:: 23:23:10

Speaker 1

That. That. That stuck with me. That it that we're being being. You know, the question again, what special role has your faith in God played The forgiveness thing I you keep forgiving I think the other one and we're going to touch on this in a little bit again was it's a covenant that in the Bible marriage is a covenant.

:: 23:43:23

Speaker 1

It's not just that you you said I do in front of some family and friends. There's something mystical about it. In fact, Jesus compares it to him in the church. So when we stood up, we said, I do. There was something mystical. It wasn't just a contract we made, it was a covenant. And it's a very serious covenant.

:: 24:01:20

Speaker 1

And we'll get into that little bit more in a moment. But all right. Number four, another question that came in from the audience. What is a struggle of getting married young that no one talks about? This is a good one because.

:: 24:12:05

Speaker 2

This is a really not.

:: 24:13:08

Speaker 1

A lot of 19 year olds get married anymore. Not nowadays. Know what were some struggles that came up because we got married in 19?

:: 24:18:12

Speaker 2

Well, part of this struggle probably had a little bit to do with the fact that when we moved to Chicago after we got married, I had been living at home. So. And you had been out on your own for a few years, but holidays and traditions can sometimes be difficult when you get married or getting married young because you haven't necessarily had time to maybe develop your own.

:: 24:41:02

Speaker 2

And then when you get married, it's like, well, my family did this well, my family did that well. What are we going to choose to do in our family? Or we go, hang out with your family? Or do we hang out with my family at this time? Yeah. Or there's just can be a lot of drama. There could be a lot of conflict.

:: 24:58:02

Speaker 2

And so there could be some holidays where you end up fighting. Yes, I like to figure that out. Instead of celebrating whatever that holiday or occasion may be. So that was something that and sometimes it's just hard. Yeah, especially I mean, I did grow up in a family that did have a lot of traditions and moving away from home right after getting married, it was hard not to be around family.

:: 25:18:09

Speaker 1

Yes, we had to. We were having this 19 year old to start building our own traditions. What you're saying is it was trying to wrestle through like, okay, which ones are we in do from your family? What should we do for my family and.

:: 25:30:14

Speaker 2

Or just new ones?

:: 25:32:15

Speaker 1

Yeah, new ones, Yeah.

:: 25:33:23

Speaker 2

We're still making new ones.

:: 25:35:03

Speaker 1

We are. Yeah. Which, which goes to this is another thing you and I talk about often, you know, people say, well, it's dangerous getting married, young girls dangerous, getting married at any age. I don't care what it is. But most people say getting married young because you're going to change your brain hasn't fully developed until you're 24. I hear all that stuff all the time.

:: 25:50:17

Speaker 1

And you and I, this is something we're adamant about, right? What do you often say?

:: 25:55:08

Speaker 2

You're constantly.

:: 25:56:18

Speaker 1

Changing. You saw me change in my thirties.

:: 25:59:03

Speaker 2

Absolutely. And your forties?

:: 26:01:08

Speaker 1

Yeah, big time. And they're.

:: 26:02:18

Speaker 2

Constantly changing. So you have to learn to adapt. Yeah. Be flexible and to allow for that change. And hopefully it's positive and not negatively, but you're still you want to grow and mature or Yeah. Whether it relationally in your face. Yeah. With your family whether it's education your job. Yeah the older you get you don't I certainly don't want I'm certainly hope I'm not the same person I was when I was 20 or 30 for that matter.

:: 26:34:06

Speaker 1

Exactly. And I think that's such an important point for people to take. I don't care if you wait till you're 25 or 30 or 35 to get married. If you think you're established, you're not going to change. That's true. You will. That's what you'll be disappointed. Yeah, you can disappointed because you will change. And so we've had to in all the years we've known each other since sixth grade, dating through high school, married since we're 19, we've had a journey through both of us changing for sure.

:: 26:57:06

Speaker 2

Yeah. No, absolutely.

:: 26:58:17

Speaker 1

For me, the one that I wrote down on that one out struggle was getting married young. I had to give up some things. I loved sports. I loved sports. I love playing basketball and were young, married, 19, 28. Like we said, we had no jobs move Chicago. So all of a sudden, we I'm I'm sitting working, working security at the camp, at the school, and I'm sitting in a security vehicle watching all these guys go down to play intramurals.

:: 27:23:09

Speaker 1

And I remember it almost hurt my heart. I wanted to play so bad and I couldn't because I had to I had to work. And so I said, you there are some things we had to give up for that now. I would never I would never change it. In fact, I wrote this quote down Sacrifice is giving up something you love for, something you love more.

:: 27:38:04

Speaker 1

So I had to sacrifice. But I look back and go, I do that sacrifice again any day. It was worth it. But. But you do have to give up some things. All right. Anything else you ask? You know.

:: 27:46:23

Speaker 2

Another one would be friendships that change.

:: 27:51:05

Speaker 1

Yes, that. Yeah, that.

:: 27:53:05

Speaker 2

That's because especially when we were married so young, you have you know, you have all of your friends. And I had my friends. Which are mostly your friends. Yeah, for the most part. But yeah, sometimes you have to transition to that weight. Now I am. You're like, I'm you want to be your best friend, But sometimes that comes into play action wise in the choices that you make when you talk about wanting to hang out with your friends.

:: 28:22:07

Speaker 1

Versus your spouse the hard way, didn't I? Yeah. Yes. Can I just say absolutely. So one of the guys that I had gone to school with him, I'd gone to school with him since fourth grade. Sixth grade when you came graduated, He was one of my buddies. We did a lot of backpacking together. We would work out together, but I told sure one night I told you when I said, Hey, we're going to go to the river.

:: 28:44:02

Speaker 1

And you said what time you'd be back around noon. Yeah, it was an afternoon. I sat around dinner. She said, okay, so I go to the river and we this is.

:: 28:52:09

Speaker 2

Pre cell phone, everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Like this is back in like 91. Exactly. Pre cell phone.

:: 28:57:09

Speaker 1

No way for us to get a hold of each other now. But all of a sudden he and I are just, you know, throwing rocks, skipping rocks across the water. And I realize the sun is going down now in western Montana in the summer when the sun goes down, it's about 930. And so I'm like, oh, man, Rich, we got to go.

:: 29:12:21

Speaker 1

get I probably walk in about: 10:00

:: 29:25:18

Speaker 1

We just had one of those little card table card games set up and down, and that was our dinner table. But it was set up and there's this beautiful dinner set and candles burning, but they were only about half an inch long now because he'd been burning a long time. Yeah. And you're sitting with a nice.

:: 29:40:02

Speaker 2

Negligee on the couch with my arms folded and like tears.

:: 29:44:22

Speaker 1

Yes.

:: 29:45:17

Speaker 2

It might have been anger at that point. Yeah.

:: 29:47:23

Speaker 1

It was, but I was very upset. But yeah, yeah, that was a hard one to disappoint. Disappointed? You said I had to learn because it, you know, it broke my heart to see what I did to you. But I had to learn at that point that I got to change how I'm living. The priority in friends, right? Yeah.

:: 30:04:17

Speaker 1

Well said. Well said. Right. Okay. Another question that came in. What boundaries did you set with family to honor protect your marriage? Ooh, that's a good one.

:: 30:13:05

Speaker 2

One of the first ones that came to mind was just too. When you're talking about your spouse or significant other to especially family, because that's what this question is. Just be mindful of how you're talking about them. Because if you're having a really hard time with your spouse and you may say something to a family member that's really negative because you're really frustrated or upset at at that time.

:: 30:35:02

Speaker 2

But to you, you're like, oh, okay, we dealt with it, you know, you make up, you get over it, you're you know, you're sorry, whatever. But your family member may not forget that you said that. And that could affect their relationship with their spouse for the negative, which.

:: 30:53:09

Speaker 1

Yeah.

:: 30:54:03

Speaker 2

I create problems down the road.

:: 30:55:22

Speaker 1

Yeah. And we boy, we both saw some urges that were ruined that way with people dragging their garbage because every marriage has their garbage and their disagreements and their fights. But when you start dragging out that out to family, it can be really, really dangerous. And it's something I've always been extremely thankful for you, Shar, because even when I was teaching and coaching, I used to go in a teacher's lounge in our towns and I would hear these women just complaining about their husbands.

:: 31:21:13

Speaker 1

And it's been so good to know that if even when you're upset with me, even when you're frustrated with me, I know that you're not dragging that out in front of other people, that you usually speak highly of me. And so I've always appreciated that. But that's a that's a good one. So having boundaries with how you talk about your spouse, that's what you're saying?

:: 31:40:15

Speaker 2

Yes. I'm not saying you don't ever not say anything that you're having a hard time or you're going through something or, you know, I'm really yeah, we're really upset with each other.

:: 31:48:22

Speaker 1

So you're not saying that you are going to pretend like everything's fine? No, because you can't do that. Let's pray for us. We're having a tough time right now or something like that. Right?

:: 31:57:23

Speaker 2

I mean, and you can still indicate that things aren't well without dragging your spouse through the mud. Yes. You can be like, yeah, we're not really happy with each other right now. We'll figure it out. But right now is really tough.

:: 32:09:06

Speaker 1

I think that's a really good one. It's just making sure that you're really trying to honor and respect your spouse and then talk about them to other people. Yeah, especially family. Now, we could put a caution here, too. I think that changes if you're in an abusive session.

:: 32:23:05

Speaker 2

Oh, for sure. That's not what we're talking.

:: 32:25:04

Speaker 1

You're in an abusive situation because a lot of people that have been abused, they're like, well, I don't want to talk about it in like the kitchen.

:: 32:30:16

Speaker 2

You need to you.

:: 32:31:09

Speaker 1

Should not be able to talk about it to tell someone.

:: 32:33:11

Speaker 2

Yes, absolutely.

:: 32:34:17

Speaker 1

Another one question from the audience. How did you prioritize your marriage when you started expanding your family, having children, adoption foster parents?

:: 32:45:01

Speaker 2

One of the things that we tried to protect is our evenings together. So when we had kids, kids need a lot of sleep to begin with. So putting them to bed between six and seven or six or 730 and it varies with their age, but having an early bedtime ensured that even though we were able to spend time with our kids at that bedtime, because that's when they start to get really chatty and want.

:: 33:09:04

Speaker 1

You, suddenly they have to have the bathroom five times.

:: 33:11:05

Speaker 2

Right? But their brain is burning. Yeah, but their brain is also starting to process the day and they want to talk about it. And so it's like, okay, But we also wanted to make sure that we had time in the evening to spend together. We needed that time together too. So even as our kids, more than anything, even as our kids got older and sometimes we just would say, I know you're not going to turn your light off right now.

:: 33:32:10

Speaker 2

You can leave your light on and read or draw, play a little bit, even whatever is like sometimes it was like, as long as they're quiet and we don't hear them, we're good. But that way we still had our time together as a couple. Yeah, and then the other one would be Lock your doors. Lock your bedroom doors.

:: 33:50:17

Speaker 1

Yeah, we have some stories there, but we won't share them with this. Oh, with it? With the audience. Yeah. Very important one. Sorry. Yeah. And here's why. I think that's good. What you're saying. And you might you're going to share some more on this, but I think it's good for everybody to remember. You will continue to spend life with that spouse and your kids will be gone someday.

:: 34:08:23

Speaker 1

Yes. And the danger sometimes is a lot of spouses who start prioritizing their kids over their spouse.

:: 34:14:17

Speaker 2

It's really hard not to do. I know I did that a lot and we had to talk about that. That was hard for you because that was my priority, especially staying home every day with the kids.

:: 34:24:07

Speaker 1

But it goes back to that idea of of making sure that you remember that your spouse is the one you're spending life with. Your kids are going to move on. Certain families. Yeah. So spending time. Well, anything else you have on that?

:: 34:35:21

Speaker 2

The other thing would be talking about something when you do have a date, which we can talk about another time. But when you do spend time together sometimes talking about things, subjects other than your kids, especially if you're if you have children or sometimes it could also be if maybe you don't have children yet and maybe sometimes you just talk about something other than work.

:: 35:01:01

Speaker 1

Yeah.

:: 35:01:20

Speaker 2

That could be a big one too. And one of the things that has helped us with that and you can find these for the audience members, you can find these online, you can look it up and find books, but you can find questions for spouses like 101 questions or 36 questions or 50 questions and to talk about your spouse.

:: 35:17:17

Speaker 2

And it just dives deeper and you get to learn more and become more intimate with your husband as far as getting to know them and each other versus just talking about maybe the same thing over and over again.

:: 35:30:02

Speaker 1

Good. All right. Next question from the audience. How did you maintain a healthy relationship during the hardest times of your marriage? I wrote down fighting for the marriage, not fighting with each other, but fighting for the marriage. In fact, I wrote it this way, said, I'm I'm for her, not against her. I would have to remind myself of that.

:: 35:51:23

Speaker 1

Sometimes I'm for her, not against her, that we're on a team. In fact, the last time.

:: 35:55:20

Speaker 2

We the last time we a few weeks ago when we had our big to do, that's something that when we talked, when we finally communicated and talked about it, that was what you even mentioned.

:: 36:06:04

Speaker 1

Yeah, we're on the same team. So we're going to figure this thing out and we've had, you know, any marriage, any marriage, that's if you've been married a year, you probably had some of these, but you married 31 years like we have. You definitely had some of them. You've gone through some hard.

:: 36:18:21

Speaker 2

Times, absolutely.

:: 36:19:23

Speaker 1

Difficult things. You've we've had three miscarriages, you know, you've had I've lost some jobs. You know, we've been like, what are we going to how are we going to make how are we going to pay the bills?

:: 36:27:18

Speaker 2

You lose family.

:: 36:28:11

Speaker 1

Members, you lose family members. You're grieving a different thing. So we we've gone through some difficult things together. And then sometimes when you're going through those difficult things, you know, you find yourself on two different like.

:: 36:40:01

Speaker 2

Journeys.

:: 36:40:17

Speaker 1

Good day and you're having a tough day, right? But I think to me, I wrote that down. That's a big one that we just had to keep reminding you. We're on the same team. We're on the same team.

:: 36:50:22

Speaker 2

And to give each other grace, I guess that was something that I thought about was you give each other grace to be where they're at. If it is a really hard time, because sometimes when you're going through hard times, I guess this is specifically talking about in your relationship, but you might be at a different stage of growth, even personal growth, or maybe maybe you've had trauma in your life and it's like something came up and you're just having a hard time.

:: 37:18:18

Speaker 2

But to give each other grace that the other, they're not perfect. I'm not part you're not perfect. I'm not perfect. And how can I be there for you during this time? And like you said, be there for each other? Yeah, because our relationship. I'm for you, not against you.

:: 37:35:20

Speaker 1

That's a good one. Because I don't think you can really be on the same team or be for that person, not against them without grace. That so I'm glad you mentioned that Grace is a big one. All right, next question. What sort of gray areas in marriage lead to toxic and health unhealthy relationship? This is a good question because this whole podcast has no gray areas and it's built around the stories from couple of guys that stepped into some gray areas and it got them in a mess and they're still paying the price for that, the consequences of that.

:: 38:04:19

Speaker 1

So the question is what kind of gray areas in marriage lead to toxic, unhealthy, unhealthy relationships? How can we maybe share some gray areas that people that are behind us in their journey can can be careful of or they're in the same part of their journey as we are and maybe be aware of these gray areas. What are some that you worked on?

:: 38:23:04

Speaker 2

One of the big ones, I think, is communication. The lack of communication or maybe communicating in the wrong way is sometimes it's I mean, as any couple knows, it's maybe not what you said, it's how you said it. Yeah. Tone or the timing. It's. Wow. Maybe I should have waited until I said something about that because we're not in it.

:: 38:49:02

Speaker 2

Good. Neither of us are in a good space to talk about it. So I think communication is definitely a big factor in man. Do I still a long ways to go on that one.

:: 38:57:12

Speaker 1

But yeah, we both do. And I think I don't know that there's any message that someone to say they've arrived at that. But you brought communication up a couple of times. I think that's good because that's what we'd say to human. It's so much of having a healthy marriage is communicate, communicate, communicate.

:: 39:10:12

Speaker 2

Well, as much as I'd like to think I know what you're thinking, I usually don't, you know, like I can't read your mind.

:: 39:17:06

Speaker 1

Yeah, Yeah.

:: 39:17:22

Speaker 2

Even though I think sometimes I can.

:: 39:19:17

Speaker 1

Well, but that's such a great point, because that goes both ways. Like, you can't. We can't read each other's minds through. You know, one of the things and, you know, hopefully we'll keep getting better at this because this probably most of our disagreements we still have it's working through lack of communication. So sometimes I would simply and this is something that I learned a long, long time ago, but I don't do it enough.

:: 39:41:00

Speaker 1

But if I did it more, probably help is to say so. You said this and what I heard you saying is you think I'm a lazy, fat slob and you go, Well, no, but that's what I'm saying. That's what we do sometimes is we tell a story in our mind, like you say, True. You say, Hey, I've asked you three times if you could fix that.

:: 39:57:15

Speaker 1

Could you fix that? I tell myself the story. She thinks I'm a lazy, fat slob. I've been working my butt off. Doesn't she realize how long I've been working? Every day. How can she go? Ask me to say. But if I. If I just said You've asked me three times, I haven't done that. I hear you saying I'm lazy and that's when you can go.

:: 40:13:00

Speaker 1

No, no, no. That's not what I'm saying, Right? I'm just saying that you're leaving in a couple of days. I need you to fix that. This is actually a real thing that just happened. Yes.

:: 40:21:09

Speaker 2

Thank you for fixing it.

:: 40:22:15

Speaker 1

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But that's the communication part. Yes. Couple of things that I wrote down. And you may have some, too, because this is a very important gray areas, taking them for granted longer. You're married. You need to start taking that person for granted. That's a gray area to get into.

:: 40:37:21

Speaker 2

But how do you not how do you pursuing them?

:: 40:42:14

Speaker 1

Well, that's Jackie pursuing you. I think that the danger is is like when you're in the infatuation dating stage and you're just like, you know, all of them and you, you know, when you're seeing them at their best all the time. But the danger is that you can start taking that person for granted. That's true. And it's a gray area to get into.

:: 40:58:01

Speaker 1

And I don't know that that pursuing them is the only answer that sidedly for the audience to to to wrestle with that some. Right. How do you not take your spouse for granted if you after you've been married for five years or seven years or ten years or 31 years, but that's a big one. That's a gray area.

:: 41:11:07

Speaker 1

Another one is talking down to each other, disrespecting each other. We've done this pretty well. One, I think that's why we gave each other a pretty high score on our marriage. It's really hard when you're mad, when you're really sure to not say, because here's what's interesting. No one on this planet knows how to hurt me quicker and easier with words than you do right now.

:: 41:31:22

Speaker 1

You.

:: 41:32:10

Speaker 2

You vice versa.

:: 41:33:14

Speaker 1

Yep. And I could do the same to you because we know each other so well. So the danger is, is when we get really mad, like every couple does. No one's made you more mad on this planet than me, and vice versa. When you're really angry, you better be very, very careful with your words.

:: 41:48:03

Speaker 2

Sometimes it in that instance, definitely better to just say, I can't talk about this right now.

:: 41:53:02

Speaker 1

And you said that to report. Be like I just I can't I can't talk about this right now. I need some time. Mm. Because you're aware that you don't want to say something that you may regret, right? Yeah.

:: 42:02:10

Speaker 2

Right, Right. So I need to think about it.

:: 42:04:16

Speaker 1

I think that's a gray area that we have to be very careful of in our marriages, that we don't talk down to each other. And that goes back to what you said before about boundaries. Don't talk down about your spouse to other people. Either you just creating a habit then of talking down about it. Respect them and honor them.

:: 42:19:10

Speaker 1

And then this is the other one that I wrote down. Divorce isn't an option. Now I'm with you and I talked about this last night and you said you're taking that you're up because I'm not wading into that mess. And I do want to I do want to say, man, if there's listeners and you and you've gone through a divorce, I know we're not trying to heap guilt on.

:: 42:40:00

Speaker 1

Oh, absolutely. No, no. A lot of couples who have gone through divorces, they're in their second or third marriages sometimes. We know some couples are in second or third marriages and now it's like, oh, my goodness, Like God put them to, yeah.

:: 42:51:03

Speaker 2

They're perfect for one.

:: 42:52:02

Speaker 1

Another. God. God is the great recycler. He loves to recycle things that have broken her. But I think it's an end. And divorce. There can be one one person in a marriage that doesn't want this. And they fought for that. And someone else just saying, I'm done and I move on. Right? So we get whatever we get all that we know.

:: 43:09:05

Speaker 1

So So let us let me just start by saying I get that there's a lot of in fact, the Bible even gives some reasons for it and there's some things that can happen. But that's a gray area. When you start having that as an option in your mind. And I think that's helped us. Is it just it's not it's not an option.

:: 43:27:05

Speaker 1

So couple weeks ago when we were having a disagreement, it was like.

:: 43:31:14

Speaker 2

That's I think that's what we we even come to. We came to each other finally and we talked about it and we said, okay, we need to talk about this because.

:: 43:41:15

Speaker 1

We're living with each other.

:: 43:42:14

Speaker 2

And I know we got to work this out because I don't want to be miserable and you don't want to be miserable. And let's let's figure this out and let's be better together.

:: 43:53:13

Speaker 1

If divorce isn't an option, then the best option is to fix the problem. Because if divorce is an option, then I may go. But if it's not an option, then my best option. Our best option is let's fix this because we're you know, if we give or not, get another 20 years on this earth, we're going to live another 20 years together.

:: 44:10:21

Speaker 1

And this is kind of miserable walking around our house like this, right? So that's that's a gray area. I think that's that you got to be really careful of if you make that commitment, then I mean, that commitment and just just don't bring it.

:: 44:22:08

Speaker 2

Do everything possible.

:: 44:23:10

Speaker 1

Do everything possible. And again, we know some couples where maybe one spouse had that and the other one decided, I don't want to be in this anymore. We get all that. But another question who or what did you turn to? If you had problems that you realized you both could not solve by yourself?

:: 44:38:10

Speaker 2

I had some close friends that I would talk about things with. This goes back to what we talked about before. Most of the time I didn't think any of the time really. I talked to family. It was usually a close friend when and it was mostly like I was really having a hard time, but it was probably affecting our relationship and a lot of times they were able to give me perspective and more than anything, the boot to say, Talk to your husband.

:: 45:06:10

Speaker 1

Now because he's for you. Yeah, I would answer the same. We had some good mentors in our life with some good friends and a life we've been blessed with that. And okay, I want to pause on that one and say because we sometimes say we were blessed with that. No, we went out and found good ones because some people I don't have any good friends or mentors go find them.

:: 45:23:00

Speaker 1

We we searched out and we made sure we had good people in her life and us. Same thing I wouldn't discount. We never did counseling. I wouldn't discount that. That could be very, very important for some people if it's like, Hey, when you couldn't solve an issue with maybe getting a good counselor can help you because they'll just help with the communication.

:: 45:39:01

Speaker 1

So that could be an important thing. We had some friends and mentors that kind of did that for us a little bit. Yes, correct. Yeah. Yeah. How can you best support your spouse when they are struggling emotionally, physically, mentally or spiritually? Another question that came in.

:: 45:51:14

Speaker 2

Sometimes I think we try to be God and we try to solve their problems for them when they're struggling and they just may need somebody to talk to. They just need they just need support more than.

:: 46:04:14

Speaker 1

Ever.

:: 46:05:10

Speaker 2

To solve the problem. So their journey, because I believe this question's not necessarily talking about the marriage relationship, is just talking about maybe where they're at in a personal space. Why are you smiling?

:: 46:18:18

Speaker 1

Well, no, I'm smiling because it's so good. Because I think I'm better at this. Haven't I was not good. I'm a problem solver by nature.

:: 46:25:06

Speaker 2

Oh, yes.

:: 46:26:06

Speaker 1

That's what I do. So early in our marriage, you'd come with me something and I'd be like, Okay, here's what we need to do. And I start trying to solve the problem. And you help me learn. Sometimes I need a hug.

:: 46:36:01

Speaker 2

Yes, absolutely. Sometimes I just need to know.

:: 46:38:16

Speaker 1

That and hug me and just.

:: 46:39:23

Speaker 2

Yeah, sometimes just talking about it, just expressing what is going on. Just there's relief and there's okay, I'm not you're not carrying it inside you. You don't feel like you're alone.

:: 46:51:06

Speaker 1

I like that. So it's not playing God. It's just sometimes being there. Being there? Yes. Giving space. Yeah. Yeah. I wrote that one. Them to give them space, pray for them, be patient sometimes. Yes. That. Yeah.

:: 47:02:13

Speaker 2

Prayer. That's a.

:: 47:03:07

Speaker 1

Big one. Again, it goes back to where a team or better together we're going to get through this. I'm not sure how I can't see the end of this either, but we're going to get through this because.

:: 47:12:19

Speaker 2

Each of us have gone through different things on a personal level that the other person can't solve. Yeah, they have. It is not in their power to do that at all.

:: 47:21:23

Speaker 1

Yeah. So, you know, I've publicly shared more so recently my battle with some anxiety and panic attacks for 12 years. And it and it hit me in an area that man I loved I loved you know, I was a speaker and I worked hard at it and it got exhausting. You know this better than anybody because, I mean, you saw it.

:: 47:43:13

Speaker 1

Most people just hear me talk about it. Every trauma you saw, this was a daily fight for me. So how did you when you see a spouse going through something like that, how did you walk with me through that?

:: 47:54:20

Speaker 2

You would probably be the better one to answer that. And I.

:: 47:57:21

Speaker 1

Would.

:: 47:59:06

Speaker 2

Because what did I do that made a difference for you?

:: 48:04:04

Speaker 1

Because I ask you that because it goes along with what you're saying. You couldn't fix it. No. Right. Like that's what you're saying. You can't play God, there's nothing you could do to fix it. So what what do you do as a spouse when you're in a situation like that and you're going to inherit her struggling physically, spiritually, emotionally, as they were saying?

:: 48:21:08

Speaker 1

How do you handle that when it's like, I can't I can't fix this, I can't do anything, too?

:: 48:24:23

Speaker 2

I think the biggest thing is to be there, let the person talk or share to be vulnerable to I mean, prayer. That's I mean, praying for the person is absolutely sure, because that is the probably the one thing that you can do that will help to maybe not fix the problem, but ease whatever is going on.

:: 48:48:11

Speaker 1

But just support. Yeah.

:: 48:51:15

Speaker 2

Yeah. It can look like whether you try to, you know, sometimes a distraction is needed. Sometimes that's the last thing that's needed. You're just trying to gauge each instance. Each time that happens. What do they need from me?

:: 49:09:12

Speaker 1

Yeah.

:: 49:10:02

Speaker 2

And most of the time they don't need anything from you.

:: 49:12:06

Speaker 1

Just love it.

:: 49:13:01

Speaker 2

You just need to be there. Yeah.

:: 49:14:11

Speaker 1

Yeah. And that goes on. That goes a long ways. Because in this specific instance, you know, what I really needed to learn is I was maybe wrestling for ten years, battled this thing and I just, as you know, it just got exhausting. But a lot of my significance or value came through that. So it was like, what if I don't have this?

:: 49:33:20

Speaker 1

Like, this is my greatest gift. What I've had is but I realized through your love and support, I'm like, Well, doesn't change anything with me, you know? I mean, there may be other people that'll still look at me differently or but with me and, you know, we're still the same. Just go on. So that's, that's a, that's that love and support Just sometimes you can't do anything but just be there for something that's really good.

:: 49:55:11

Speaker 1

Another question What does your spouse do for you that you appreciate the most?

:: 49:59:16

Speaker 2

Well, this is practical, but the very first thing that came up to me and this has been an ongoing thing in our relationship but that you plan vacations, you know for us and our family. Yeah. And then I'm going to say before you talk about that, but that I love the fact that you you love God, you love me and you loved our family.

:: 50:25:01

Speaker 2

Like, I appreciate that.

:: 50:26:01

Speaker 1

Thank you. Yeah, I already talked about what minus the, you know, the fact that, you know, my love language. We'll talk a little bit a little bit about love, languages, but minus words of affirmation. And so when I would call you and I'd look on your phone and I'd see my hero pops up, that meant a lot to me.

:: 50:40:13

Speaker 1

For some people, that may not be a big thing. They're just they have a different love language that's huge for me. When I would speak, you know, up until I was 50, that was basically what I did for 30 years was I was a speaker. And so I'd get done speaking. I may have scores of people or hundreds of people going, Oh, that was message was so gorgeous.

:: 50:57:15

Speaker 1

And I kind of liked that and I kind of but there was only one person I really wanted to hear that from. You always very good about, you know, just saying, Hey, I like that you, when you did this or this was a good part of it, because you know that words of affirmation meant a lot to me or mean a lot to me.

:: 51:12:11

Speaker 1

So I think, you know something I really appreciate that you do for me. And that's so I would say to the audience, figure out your spouse and what their love language is, what they need from you, and then make sure you're pouring into that. You're giving them what was a hard lesson you learned in your marriage?

:: 51:28:03

Speaker 2

Oh, I think early on, one of the hardest lessons I don't know if heart is the right word, but I realized that we are not alike at all.

:: 51:41:13

Speaker 1

And we thought we wo we.

:: 51:43:10

Speaker 2

Enjoy similar things. We enjoy similar activities. We enjoy doing similar things. But that doesn't mean that we're alike. Yes, because we are not alike.

:: 51:54:15

Speaker 1

But I think.

:: 51:55:03

Speaker 2

Very different personalities, likes, dislikes, the are the are the lens that we see things through our perspective, how we work. Like it's so different, totally different.

:: 52:08:11

Speaker 1

But we didn't we since we knew each other since we were 12, dated to high school, we get married and we're like, we're, we're alike. That's what I mean when I say we're alike because we thought we were like because we had similar interests and we love to do the same things. And we've fun doing this together. But we but we get married and we start living life together.

:: 52:26:16

Speaker 1

And also it's like, what the heck, She's totally different than me. And which is which is how God usually works it, right? Opposites attract. Yes. Remember the book? Yes. Describe the book.

:: 52:36:22

Speaker 2

Yes. The title is Opposites attract, but the word attract, it was crossed out and it was slashed out. And it it was the word attract was slashed out and it said attack. Yeah. And wow, was that book appropriate?

:: 52:51:03

Speaker 1

Oh, one of the best books for our marriage.

:: 52:53:00

Speaker 2

Really? Yes, it.

:: 52:54:22

Speaker 1

Was, because we were just started this journey of of living life together and all this. And we're going like we're actually really opposite from each right. Yeah. And we just having stupid like all couples around stupid fights, like one of the friends we have to we get married the first time we go shopping together. We had a fight over brown sugar, right?

:: 53:11:03

Speaker 1

We're standing in the aisle and it was like, you're like.

:: 53:12:22

Speaker 2

This one's cheaper. And I said, What do you want to have? Soft cookies? Yeah, I What? This one's $0.20 cheaper, But do you want to have soft cookies?

:: 53:19:19

Speaker 1

Because the lens I look through at that time in my life was right. Save money. Yes, save money, you know, And yours was. Well, there's quality involved in this too. Right. But that was just a silly example of we just look through a different lens. Yes. And the longer we've lived together, the more we realize how opposite we are.

:: 53:36:11

Speaker 2

The biggest difference for me was the Enneagram. That made a huge difference. Learning about each other, learning about you what Enneagram number you are because it tells you everything. Like what you think, what you do. It's all filters through that perspective, that how you're bent. That made a huge difference, not just with you, but with our family.

:: 53:59:20

Speaker 1

Yeah but that that's made Yeah. Yeah.

:: 54:03:00

Speaker 2

Thebiggest difference and we've done strength finder and that's been that was good too. But I feel like as far as our relation ship yeah I think the Enneagram has made for me at least it's made the most difference.

:: 54:14:01

Speaker 1

Yeah, but sure, you bring it up something important though I think again as it's going that yes, those are the love language test the the strength finder test, personality test, Enneagram test. You're saying the Enneagram was on. That worked best for you. But we're saying those are important. Learn your spouse. Learn about. Yes, you're right.

:: 54:31:02

Speaker 2

Right. We those questions that we talked about earlier, that is one way that you can learn about your spouse.

:: 54:36:00

Speaker 1

Yeah. So we get engaged at 19 you're 18 I guess 19 and the pastor that was going to marry us, he's like, well, I want to do premarital counseling with you, which is we're great. So we go in the first time. But we had gone to we had good mentors in our life and good people in life, so we knew all the right answers with marriage.

:: 54:52:22

Speaker 1

So we go to the first premarital counseling. And remember, he's like, at the end of it, he's like, You guys.

:: 54:58:18

Speaker 2

You guys will be fine. You're good.

:: 55:00:23

Speaker 1

Yeah.

:: 55:01:15

Speaker 2

Oh, okay.

:: 55:03:07

Speaker 1

And then we get into our marital. We knew. Yeah, Yeah. So I just. I wish so much that, like, some of our pre-marital had been these things we're talking about. Take some time, figure out how you're wired. You you look through a different lens than I look through.

:: 55:15:14

Speaker 2

And our kids have gone through some pre-marital counseling, and I'm like, Oh, I wish we would have gone through that book. That was phenomenal to learn about one another and your relationship, what that will look like in the future.

:: 55:27:05

Speaker 1

Yeah, I hope so. Much so. Moving on here then, what is your favorite thing about marriage? Well, I.

:: 55:33:09

Speaker 2

Get to live with my best friend.

:: 55:34:19

Speaker 1

I wrote something similar. I started living this adventurous life with someone who is your best friend, lover and partner, and you go. That is the beauty of it, isn't it? It is like we get to we get to do life together. Yes. The the downs, the messiness, but it makes the ups even better. And the lows, it makes them better, too, because you're not doing it alone.

:: 55:53:08

Speaker 2

Well, there's usually we've talked about this in the circle of friendships that you may have. You've got the inner circle is really tight and it's probably a spouse and then you've got another circle and you've only maybe got two or three people in it, and then you have another circle and that has a few more in it. But and that also has to do with the time that you spend with them.

:: 56:17:05

Speaker 2

You can't spend you don't have time in your day in your life to spend all this time with everybody. You can't. You have to have those circles that designate your priority. Yeah, you have to. Otherwise you'd go crazy. So to be able to have you be that one inner circle that I get to spend my time with, be vulnerable with when I'm.

:: 56:43:12

Speaker 1

Yeah.

:: 56:44:02

Speaker 2

The intimacy, not just physical, but emotional.

:: 56:47:12

Speaker 1

That's a good part though, too. So. Wow, now you're you're totally right. And you use the word vulnerable. And that's what jumped out at me, that in a healthy marriage, you can be vulnerable and it's okay. And you feel safe with that. Right. And that's rare. And that's why that like that inner circle, you know, I tell people often that one of my favorite things was for a long time when I would call you, when it would pop up on your phone, it would say, my hero and have a picture of me.

:: 57:17:21

Speaker 1

Which is interesting because no one knows my flaws better than you. I just know one of those planet that knows my flaws better than Charlotte.

:: 57:23:22

Speaker 2

Oh, my gosh, you're so. You're my hero.

:: 57:26:04

Speaker 1

But then to have you say that is which. Which is where it's like that's that inner circle, right where I'm vulnerable because you know my flaws. Mm hmm. But to still say that there's something special that's doing that together. Yeah, Well, what are the ways for people to keep the spark or keep the relationship fresh after years of marriage?

:: 57:46:08

Speaker 1

This is a good one. Because I think, especially in our society, they you see people joking about it all the time. They've been married for 15 years, like, you know, where's the spark now? It's got to be boring, you know, each other. So how do you how do you keep that alive?

:: 57:59:02

Speaker 2

You have to be intentional. It doesn't just happen. You have to choose to whether it's going on dates, whether it's going on vacations together, just the two of you, whether it's like for us, what we have had to do is sometimes with especially you hear a lot, probably a lot more sentimental. Is that the.

:: 58:23:02

Speaker 1

World? Yeah. Yeah. Especially with our baby. Yeah. I hear you saying I'm a crybaby.

:: 58:27:17

Speaker 2

Especially with our family and the memories we have with our family. And we could totally get stuck there and always think about and remember those situations. But we have chosen to be intentional about making new memories, even if it's just the two of us. Because most of the time now it's just the two of us. Yeah. So we have chosen to be intentional about making new memories and sometimes as exploring new new places or new things or.

:: 58:51:18

Speaker 2

And sometimes that's just going someplace you've been before. But you're just making new memories in that, in that location or wherever.

:: 59:00:14

Speaker 1

Yeah, I'm smiling because you're so right on. I am sentimental and I'm the one that when our kids, especially our first born, when our daughter left and I always make videos for them like their senior year, remember, I make the video, we still watch them and it's kind of their whole life and it's got some songs. And so Ashley moves away.

:: 59:18:07

Speaker 1

She moves back to Montana. We're living in Phenix, and when you and the boys were gone, I would just put that in and just sit there on the couch and just cry. Cry Stop it. Just torturing myself with that. And then I did the same with both boys when they left home. But what you're saying is so true.

:: 59:34:01

Speaker 1

We kept pursuing each other. We kept and you kept reminding us, like, let's make new memories. And it was it was a hard transition for a little while because we put our life into our kids and we loved having our kids. And it was hard when they left but man.

:: 59:47:21

Speaker 2

They had to spend more good.

:: 59:48:22

Speaker 1

We're really loving and having we are one now. Yeah. Are because because of what you really encouraged us to do. Like, let's make new memories. So now in a year or two, I'm going to be watching videos of us right now.

:: 59:58:23

Speaker 2

We'll be crying over this.

:: 00:00:20

Speaker 1

It's perfect for me. Okay, next question. I won't.

:: 00:03:12

Speaker 2

Want to look.

:: 00:03:22

Speaker 1

At them. So let's say a boy and a girl in their young twenties just got engaged and are planning to get married. What piece of advice would you say to them? We've been talking for quite a while now, all this different stuff just about our life. How we've made our marriage, how we've done things. If we had to boil it down and say, Here's three pieces of advice we would give.

:: 00:21:05

Speaker 1

Now, you and I decided last night that we're going to sit down, just talk through this and we'll come up with three together. Right. So here's the three pieces of advice and then we'll talk about them. Number one, pursue each other. Question How do you do that practically? So someone may be listening going, okay, I pursue each other.

:: 00:34:12

Speaker 1

Sounds good, but how do you practically do that?

:: 00:37:07

Speaker 2

Well, it goes back to probably the answer to many of the other questions that we took, like finding out about the other person, like getting to know them, who they really are, who they really are, whether it's versus with the Annie Graham is a part of that or just dating, of course.

:: 00:55:01

Speaker 1

How about this one being flexible and recognizing that there's going to be seasons that people are going to change?

:: 01:00:13

Speaker 2

Oh, absolutely. Because of what we talked about earlier. The you you don't want to be still married to a 20 year old who's like 40, but they still act like they're 20.

:: 01:13:00

Speaker 1

Yeah.

:: 01:13:13

Speaker 2

You know, whatever that whatever that may be. You want to allow for a maturity for growth, whether it's emotionally, obviously there's to be changes physically. But so you work, you talk about that, you work through that and just relationally.

:: 01:29:03

Speaker 1

Yeah. You know, and I would put on there with the pursuing each other friendship. We've talked about this from the early days of our marriage. That friendship is what's going to go. You're going to there's you know, so much of your married life is going to ebb and flow. There's going to be ups and downs. You have good times.

:: 01:41:15

Speaker 1

But it's the friendship, though, that's going to carry like this is your best friend. This is the.

:: 01:45:16

Speaker 2

Person. We laughed a lot together.

:: 01:47:00

Speaker 1

Yeah, we do laugh a lot. A lot with each other and at each other. Yes. Yes. Not in a not in a demeaning way. No, but we do. Yeah. And her sound effects for the audience are true.

:: 01:56:19

Speaker 2

Sure. Absolutely. And I'm not going to do that.

:: 01:58:22

Speaker 1

And I love to make I say just make it try to make a gun. So I'm not I just laugh. Oh, you've made me laugh. Yeah, I'm in tears because. Yeah, but that's a good one, like laughing with each other. Okay, so pursuing each other. Number two, fight. Well, some people may not like the word fight, so we could just say, just argue, disagree, whatever it is, because maybe some people grew up in a really bad home and fight is a trigger word for them.

:: 02:20:19

Speaker 1

But for us, we're going to use the word fight. Well, disagree, argue. Well, what does that look like? How do you do that?

:: 02:27:00

Speaker 2

That respect is is important because that leads back to I'm for you, not against you. I'm for us. Not against us.

:: 02:34:07

Speaker 1

Remember when we were talking about this last night, we were talking back and forth about it and everything. And and all of a sudden I go, Oh, I got a quotable quote, and I wrote it down. Yes, this is this is gold. This is a quote came out of our discussion. Okay. You will fight well with each other if you spend most of your time fighting for each other.

:: 02:50:05

Speaker 2

So wait, say that one more time.

:: 02:51:21

Speaker 1

You will fight well with each other.

:: 02:54:05

Speaker 2

That's the word.

:: 02:54:23

Speaker 1

Okay. If you spend most of your time fighting for each other. Right? If our marriage most of our marriage was fighting with each other, that's that's there's a problem. But because we spent most of our time fighting for each other, the times this is going to happen in any marriage because we're two broken human beings that you have fights, you're going to fight.

:: 03:12:19

Speaker 1

You're going to fight well or better with each other. Keep the main thing. The main thing. You said that last night.

:: 03:17:05

Speaker 2

Oh, that's true. Keep the main thing. The main thing. Think sometimes, you know, we all have a tendency, no matter what relationship you're in, but especially with a spouse, that there's something that happens. You're like, This is why I'm really mad. But then all of a sudden when you're talking, it's like, Oh, wait, but all of these other little things that might be irritants or whatever start coming into the conversation.

:: 03:35:19

Speaker 2

It's like, Wait, wait, wait. In fact, we had to do that when we talked a few weeks ago. We had to sit. We had to both agree to go, okay, this is a separate issue. We can talk about that another time. But this is this why we're here? Yeah. So let's let's talk about why we're here in this situation.

:: 03:53:01

Speaker 2

And we can we can deal with that another time.

:: 03:55:17

Speaker 1

Yeah. So three pieces of advice. Number one, pursue each other. Number two, fight well, and then the last one was Love is not a noun, it's an action verb. Yes.

:: 04:04:20

Speaker 2

Very, very nice.

:: 04:05:12

Speaker 1

That's what you said. Yeah.

:: 04:06:14

Speaker 2

You have to back it up with action. Because just saying, hearing somebody say I love you. I mean, I love chocolate.

:: 04:12:17

Speaker 1

Yep. Yeah.

:: 04:14:16

Speaker 2

That's usually means I'm eating it. There's action, right?

:: 04:17:17

Speaker 1

Like Doing something about it.

:: 04:20:02

Speaker 2

I'm doing something about it. You know, I love to hike. Well, okay. You probably out hiking then? Well, I love you. Well, how do I serve you? Which is sounds subservient, but it's not. But how do I. How do I make you happy? What do I do? I make the foods that you like. Do we do the things that you like?

:: 04:38:09

Speaker 2

Do we watch the things that you like to watch? Do we? You know, whatever it is that will make your day, so to speak.

:: 04:44:14

Speaker 1

And we're doing the same back for you. Yes. So it makes a healthy relationship, right? Yeah. I think that's so good. And, you know, again, coming from a faith based background, both of us are. That's what's beautiful about the Bible, the most quoted verse in the entire Bible. Probably if you've watched any football game, you've seen it there in the in the in the background.

:: 05:01:11

Speaker 1

John 316 for God so love the world. That's not where it ends that he gave his only he got something he gave his son. So that's where you see the action. The action. God doesn't just say he loves us. He actually displays that by how he does it. And it says the same to us, right? That if we claim to love, then there's going to be action behind it.

:: 05:17:13

Speaker 1

Anything else that you feel like you have to say that that we're missing?

:: 05:21:18

Speaker 2

I really love you.

:: 05:23:14

Speaker 1

I love you, too. Okay. This is going to be the fun part. We've been wrestling with this one. So the fun thing we're doing, the No Graves podcast was due to Truth in a Lie, which, by the way, was your your your idea. When we were coming up with this podcast a year and a half ago or whatever, and I said, I want to do something that's a little different, Like everybody's got their little thing that they and what can we do?

:: 05:41:10

Speaker 1

And you said you should maybe do the Two Truths in a Lie. And it's been a fun part. People have talked about how they really enjoy it. So we interview a guest for about a half hour or 45 minutes and then I say give us two truths in a lie and see if the audience and me if we can guess it.

:: 05:54:08

Speaker 1

Okay. But you and I have been wrestling with this for weeks. We've been well, we've.

:: 05:57:19

Speaker 2

Known each other for so long.

:: 05:59:08

Speaker 1

We know each other for 40 years. How can I say so? We both last night were with our youngest son. We needed his help.

:: 06:05:15

Speaker 2

Yes, he was trying to call somebody.

:: 06:07:06

Speaker 1

I'm going to stump you.

:: 06:07:21

Speaker 2

I'm going to go first.

:: 06:08:20

Speaker 1

Okay. I have.

:: 06:09:23

Speaker 2

I want to go first. I have to read one too. So I'm going to read mine.

:: 06:13:12

Speaker 1

Okay. To Truth in a Lie, I got to figure out which lie.

:: 06:16:11

Speaker 2

Okay. I did not earn straight A's in high school. I wet the bed until I was in first grade. Kyle was present at the birth of his cousin Kyle as our youngest son.

:: 06:28:11

Speaker 1

You got straight A's in high school. You have straight A's your whole life. Probably. Uh, Kyle was not at the birth of. That's the lie.

:: 06:39:03

Speaker 2

No, that's true. He was little. He was, like, three months old, and my sister wanted me to be in the room when she delivered, but I was still nursing, so I had to take him with me. He was sitting in the his car seat when Bella was born.

:: 06:54:08

Speaker 1

Oh, wow. Okay, I know you. You. Because you always talk about that. That that was something you you were always embarrassed about. You went to bed until, like, way late. But that's not to lie, though, because that's true. But was the first grade off? Yeah.

:: 07:08:03

Speaker 2

It was actually third grade.

:: 07:09:15

Speaker 1

Okay. Okay. I had a problem. Yeah Yeah.

:: 07:13:11

Speaker 2

I had a problem, but we figured it out.

:: 07:16:15

Speaker 1

You got it. I got you. I got you. All right. Kyle should be so happy he helped us with. These are.

:: 07:21:11

Speaker 2

Young kids, and I'm not earned straight A's in high school. Wow, That is true.

:: 07:25:17

Speaker 1

That's true. The Korean doesn't.

:: 07:27:20

Speaker 2

Mean you earned straight A's in high school. We only had 18 kids in our class. I didn't have to earn straight A's in high school. Remember how bad I was at geometry? I didn't understand geometry until my final exam. Yeah.

:: 07:38:18

Speaker 1

So I just saw the audience no stronger. The value. Taurean. I was the guy that made the top two thirds of the class. Okay. Okay, well, okay, here we go to choose in life. Okay. Oh, you got me. I got to get you here. Okay. The most embarrassed I ever was with you was when I put my pants in front of you.

:: 07:54:10

Speaker 1

The first time. The happiest I've ever been with you was the day I married you. The most captivated I ever was with you was the day we drove over the pass. I was looking at you in the mirror as you sat in the backseat with our niece. And the wind was blowing through your hair.

:: 08:08:13

Speaker 2

Okay, I'm going to say the number three is true.

:: 08:13:05

Speaker 1

Yes. Okay. Now you got a: 5050

:: 08:16:08

Speaker 2

I now have read the first two again.

:: 08:18:11

Speaker 1

You're going to make me say the first one again. Yes, The most embarrassed I was I ever was with you was when I put my pants in front of you The first time. The happiest I've ever been with you was the day I married you.

:: 08:29:09

Speaker 2

I'm going to say that the first one is true, and the second one is the lie.

:: 08:36:05

Speaker 1

Why do you think it's the lie?

:: 08:38:03

Speaker 2

Because that was just one day. And I feel like we've had so many. Good. It's just gotten better.

:: 08:46:00

Speaker 1

You got it. You got it. So the most embarrassing moment was time. I put my pants off for the first time. The happiest I've ever been with you was the day I married you. That was the lie. Because I would say the happiest ever with you was when we were is around her ten year anniversary. We had a couple of kids.

:: 09:01:03

Speaker 1

Three kids, and we got to go to Hawaii, just the two of us.

:: 09:06:09

Speaker 2

And that was.

:: 09:07:08

Speaker 1

That was around the ten year. And that was the happiest I ever was with you, I think ever, like, ever.

:: 09:12:12

Speaker 2

Every last week was tough. Well, now I'm.

:: 09:15:11

Speaker 1

Thinking.

:: 09:16:23

Speaker 2

Now that was a really.

:: 09:17:22

Speaker 1

Great memory. It was a great morale y. We often encourage couples saying, man, you have to once you start having kids, you got to figure out a way how how.

:: 09:25:00

Speaker 2

Do you know I just the.

:: 09:26:01

Speaker 1

Two of you somehow get away every once in a while, the two of you, because it's one of the most free, we just felt free and we knew each other better. When you first married, you're still trying to figure each other. You're trying to learn about. But we'd been. We'd been together now ten years, married. And it was just it was a great time.

:: 09:41:02

Speaker 1

So. All right.

:: 09:42:00

Speaker 2

I do remember. I totally got you. And I just, you know, for the record, I when I when.

:: 09:49:02

Speaker 1

Okay, well, another important thing in marriages don't keep records, so we're going to forget who won this one. All right. Well, Sherman, thanks for being on the note greater. Yes, thanks for asking me.

:: 09:57:16

Speaker 2

I love you, too.

:: 09:58:19

Speaker 1

Hey, today we had special guest, Sherman McCullough, my wife, and we had a great conversation about what makes a healthy relationship. But we want to hear from you. What do you think is essential to making a great marriage or a great relationship? Please comment below. Or if you're listening to an audio platform, send in your comments to info at no gray areas dot com.

:: 10:20:22

Speaker 1

Thanks for joining us and remember to like follow especially subscribe No gray areas.