The Complexity of Grief & Learning to Live Again After Loss | Ep. 118 with Greg Tonkinson
Dr. Greg Tonkinson—pastor, TEDx speaker, and author of Unwanted Fraternity opens up about the night everything changed. One moment he was living the American dream… the next, he was on the floor, shattered by the news that would flip his life upside down. What followed was a journey through grief, vulnerability, and unexpected healing.
His personal tragedy became the foundation for his book and ministry, Unwanted Fraternity—a space for people who never asked to be part of the grief club, but found themselves there anyway. Through his story, you'll learn why community matters, how to show up for those grieving, and why it’s time we stop hiding behind surface-level conversations
This episode is raw, emotional, and deeply human. Whether you’ve walked through grief yourself or know someone who has, Greg’s honesty will help you understand how to process pain in a healthy way and remind you that you don’t have to do it alone.
Watch now and explore more at https://www.unwantedfraternity.com/
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No Grey Areas is a motivational podcast with captivating guests centered around how our choices humanize, empower, and define who we become. This podcast is inspired by the cautionary tale, No Grey Areas, written by Joseph Gagliano. Learn more about the truth behind his story involved with sports' biggest scandal at https://www.nogreyareas.com/
Transcript
Host
Today on the No Gray Areas podcast, we welcome Greg Tomkinson, pastor, speaker and author of Unwanted Fraternity. If you've ever experienced loss or walk through grief, this conversation will meet you right where you are. Greg opens up about the night that changed everything and how vulnerability, community, and faith can carry us through even the darkest seasons. Let's dive in.
::Pat McCalla
Greg Tomkinson, welcome to the No Gray Areas podcast. So good to have
::Greg Tonkinson
you. Thanks, Pat.
::Pat McCalla
And,
::Pat McCalla
you wrote a book called Unwanted Fraternity, which we're going to get into on what exactly that unwanted fraternity is.
::Pat McCalla
So let me open by just asking you this.
::Pat McCalla
Can you share your personal experience with
::Greg Tonkinson
grief? Sure.
::Pat McCalla
how it changed you?
::Greg Tonkinson
of white cars. For me back in: ::Greg Tonkinson
I would say, man, I'm living a blessed life. I think that I was in ministry. God was blessing this time.
::Greg Tonkinson
th,: ::Greg Tonkinson
it's that proverbial knock that you read about or listen to.
::Greg Tonkinson
In podcasts or hear on movies where people say, and then the knock came at the door, none of us get the knock. And then that night I got the knock and it wasn't proverbial. It was literal. So it was about seven or so that night. We were just about to head into spring break. My wife is a nurse and I was an educator, and we were excited.
::Greg Tonkinson
We had three kids at the time ten, six and four. They're in the living room playing. It was a typical Saturday night in South Gilbert, quintessential suburb. And and then that knock came and when I opened the door, I was met with, a police officer and two people who flanked him wearing, dark, windbreakers. And I thought, literally, it's amazing when you're in the moment
::Greg Tonkinson
what your mind does and how it races to conclusions that typically aren't true.
::Greg Tonkinson
I thought I was in trouble. I thought.
::Greg Tonkinson
You know what you did.
::Greg Tonkinson
I thought this was the FBI. And so I looked back at my three kids, and I. And I knew my wife was coming home from work, and I started thinking, who can I call to come watch my kids because I'm getting arrested for something.
::Greg Tonkinson
So nerves were running. Now I'm on high alert and this officer, he mid-twenties, young guy, and I could just see the look in his eyes.
::Greg Tonkinson
He was dead serious. And again, I just thought he's he's angry at me. And he said, is your name Greg Tomkinson? And I said, yeah. And he said, can we come in? And I said, just instinctively said, I need to see some I.D..
::Greg Tonkinson
I don't know who these people are. I've got three kids in the back here. And he said, my name is Officer So-and-so.
::Greg Tonkinson
These this is a, police chaplain. And this is. This is a police, child care person, and we need to talk with you. Still didn't get it? Still wasn't thinking when I say that. And I've spoken this to many audiences,
::Greg Tonkinson
they've already got it. They've already made that connection. I didn't, so I'm looking back at my kids and I'm thinking, why are they here?
::Greg Tonkinson
What is happening right now? And and so he said, can we come in? And so I let them in. Were in our front little area of the, of the house. By this time, the kids had kind of gathered my ten year old, two boys and a girl. My youngest is four, she's a girl and then my middle and older, they're all kind of gathered, kind of huddled and looking curiously at, you know, what is happening.
::Greg Tonkinson
And again, I just I retrieve my information from movies where we're walking in. And I turned around. I said, he said, you're probably going to need to sit for this. And I false courageously, pseudo courageously said, hey, if you need something, if you need to tell me something, just go ahead and tell me. As if I was like puffing my chest out.
::Greg Tonkinson
And that's when he said, man, I'm so sorry to tell you this, but about an hour ago, your wife, your wife was killed in a car accident,
::Greg Tonkinson
you know, again, you and I, I mean, we've we've been through a lot in ministry aspects and other aspects. I've never been in a position where words have weight.
::Greg Tonkinson
And those words had weight. Like, literally. I heard that and I just, I, I caved, I dropped to the floor.
::Pat McCalla
that what you mean when you say the words have
::Greg Tonkinson
bout it's never us and and in: ::Greg Tonkinson
try to be a ten year old and see your dad just buckle.
::Greg Tonkinson
And they didn't they didn't hear what he had said. So they don't know why this is happening. So, man, they just they just. Yeah, I'm enveloped with these three little kids. And by God's grace, I just mustered the strength to look at them. And, and I said, hey, mommy. Mommy's mommy got killed tonight, and she's not with us.
::Greg Tonkinson
She's in heaven. And, we're going to see her again, but we've got some work to do.
::Greg Tonkinson
in the book. I call it our holy Huddle. The four of us just had this moment in the midst of this overwhelming no news, that we were going to be together in this and so made made a call and and I'm told that this because you lose.
::Greg Tonkinson
Lose track of what? Just happened. But I was told I called my brother first and then the word got out. Within 30 minutes or so, my house was filled at about nine, 930 that night. And, and I tell you again, when I've had now 15 years going on, 15 years of looking back, what I hate about that night is that that news came to me.
::Greg Tonkinson
What I love about that night is the community that my wife and I had built up to that point showed up, and they represented well, and we had pockets of the house. One one group was was they were angry. She was come to find out, she was two miles from our house, sitting at a stoplight waiting to come home, and someone ran into the back of her, doing about 75, no brakes.
::Greg Tonkinson
And he was 20 year old kid. And hit her from behind and flipped the car, and she died instantly. At the scene. I have a good friend who's a surgeon, and I sent him the the M.E. report, the autopsy report, and he got back with me and said, listen, probably one of the most violent, reports I've read.
::Greg Tonkinson
On the other hand, it was so fast that she probably heard a sound, and that was it. So again, there's, you know, there's always two sides of of angst and some, some solace in that.
::Greg Tonkinson
So she was two miles away and that's what happened. And, and so, so, so people were angry at that because we didn't know why it happened or how it happened.
::Greg Tonkinson
And and then there was another group that were they were they were weeping like, like biblically weeping. Then there was another group that were quiet and they were just they were just it lost in memory. She was 35 years old.
::Greg Tonkinson
There was another group that were just just trying to figure piece it all together. And, and I remember just looking around the house thinking, I don't I don't want this, but I can't do it without these people.
::Greg Tonkinson
And it's amazing that that lasted throughout the night. And that was the very first night I looked at these three precious kids, and I thought, I want them to have a memory of when they're ready to look back and say, what? What happened? So I started journaling that night, day zero, and I got to day 365. And that's what turned into several years later, the book.
::Pat McCalla
So the the name I think you just referenced did a little bit, but but unwanted fraternity.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah, yeah. So
::Greg Tonkinson
to death. It was right about: ::Greg Tonkinson
So she had to read all of this and
::Greg Tonkinson
that's a whole, you know, another, another story. But Jen was the one who suggested, what do you want to name this? And so we started wrestling through what is this about? And what we landed on was, nobody wants to be a part of grief. Nobody wants to be a part of suffering and pain.
::Greg Tonkinson
It's unwanted it. I've never met someone. We speak a grief share as we speak, a divorce, care as we speak in churches and nonprofits. And I've never had someone come up and say, man, I'm so glad I'm a part of this. I wanted to be a part of this, right? You know? And so nobody wants to be a part of it.
::Greg Tonkinson
But this idea that we are. So we're a part of this coed, young, old socioeconomic diversity, racial diversity, you know, Matthew seven in the Bible talks about the winds and storms come to everyone.
::Greg Tonkinson
so you're a part of this fraternity. So it's an unwanted fraternity. But let's acknowledge we're a part of it. Maybe we can lock arms and try to walk through this together, because our tagline, both in the book and when we speak is, you're not alone in this.
::Greg Tonkinson
The worst thing you can do, I believe, is try to live your pain and grief alone. I think that's where the enemy gets a hold of us and says
::Pat McCalla
try to do in our grief, isn't it?
::Greg Tonkinson
especially a lot of guys, try to just pull the boots up and and just, you know, power through it. And what I've found.
::Pat McCalla
does it
::Pat McCalla
I, I'm guessing here. So so
::Greg Tonkinson
yeah. Tell me if
::Pat McCalla
I'm wrong, but is it because like we, we think it makes us feel weak or weak or we feel weak
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
out? I mean, why do you think that it's
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Greg Tonkinson
Pain involves vulnerability. It involves transparency. You know, you think about when we meet people. I've often told, groups I'm speaking to.
::Greg Tonkinson
What if we started the conversation instead of, hey, my name is Greg. Hey, what do you do with. Hey, my name is Greg. Hey, Pat, tell me your story. Because when we get into meetings where we're asking people their story, I.
::Greg Tonkinson
I'll preach at a at a church or, teach at a place and complete strangers. I'll inevitably share my story. And within a half hour, 45 minutes. Well, however long at the end, people are lining up with tears in their eyes. Hi, my name is Greg. You know. Hi, my name is Jane. I've been coming to this church.
::Greg Tonkinson
I've been coming to this place for 20 years. Nobody knows my story. You get me? Wait a minute. I just met you. Yeah, but you get me because. Because the story of grief drives us down past the surface into some really foundational things about ourselves. Who am I? Why did this happen? Where am I going out of all this?
::Greg Tonkinson
How am I going to get there? And so I've lived that. And so I have nothing more to offer you than I'm one of you. I'm part of the fraternity, and I don't, and I don't have all the answers. But I get you. And all of a sudden now we're bonded, intrinsically bonded in a way that we don't want to be bonded.
::Greg Tonkinson
so I think a lot of people struggle with this is new. I've spent my years living on the surface, and maybe I've got a few family members or a few friends that I confide in. But now this I'm marked by this, this moment, this event. So I choose either to let people know about it, or I try to bury it and try to power through it.
::Greg Tonkinson
And I'm a big fan of please don't try to power through it. Let people in on your story.
::Pat McCalla
if ever ends well does
::Greg Tonkinson
Oh my goodness. I remember two weeks after my event was about two months. Got a call from a friend and she said good friend. And she said, you're never going to believe this. There's a guy at the hospital right now lost his wife to a car accident. They have small children. She was a nurse. Like everything was lining up to you got you need to meet this guy.
::Greg Tonkinson
Drove up to the hospital, walked into this hospital room and saw a guy working on his laptop. Two little small kids, and I and I went over to him, and I've got tears in my eyes. And I said, man, I'm just so sorry for your loss. And he said, yeah, it was that. That's a rough one. Well, I got to work on Monday, you know, just trying to figure out how I'm going to, you know, and but just kind of status quo.
::Greg Tonkinson
And I just, I thought I was in the wrong room. I thought based on what I went through and the weight of this tragic event, that I can't be in the right room, sure enough, I was, but he was he was taking the position of denial and trying to power through. This wasn't that big of a deal. I just lost my wife.
::Greg Tonkinson
I've got two small children. Somehow I'll figure this out. We wrote the book to add to people's library of resources to say, in the middle of the night, when you've now realized you can't figure it out, read this. Read other. Read. There's great books out there that will help you understand you're not alone. And there's actually ways that you can.
::Greg Tonkinson
I wouldn't say be successful, but at least endure this to where you can get up to where I am 15 years later and have great moments of joy and victory and purpose, and not lose yourself in this tragic event. Often that you didn't, you didn't ask for, often brought upon you.
::Greg Tonkinson
And so that's why we wrote the book.
::Greg Tonkinson
Said
::Pat McCalla
Greg, you talked about like in the middle of the night when you can't figure it out. That's
::Pat McCalla
of the definitions of grief, isn't it, that
::Greg Tonkinson
it is
::Pat McCalla
in grief, whatever brought that on us, that's part of what makes it so difficult, is
::Greg Tonkinson
It is
::Pat McCalla
why questions that are left unanswered.
::Pat McCalla
Right.
::Greg Tonkinson
And that's where they often come. I remember putting my kids to bed because again, there's macro. Micro, right. A macro is this just happened. How do I live. Micro is my kids got a test tomorrow. My kid's got a project. My kid has to bring donuts tomorrow. How am I going to do that? And so you put the kids to bed and now you've got from, you know, nine in the at night till six the next morning.
::Greg Tonkinson
And those are sleepless nights. Those are nights where it doesn't shut off. You're laying in a bed where your spouse used to lay next to you. You know, all of that. And and so one of the things that helped me was to read other people's stories in that moment. I remember reading a book. Jerry Switzer wrote a book called the Grace disguised, and I read it, and, he lost his wife, his mom, and one of his daughters in a car accident got hit head on.
::Greg Tonkinson
So he wrote a book, and I read his book and through a friend actually got his phone number. So I called him, and he lives up in Washington. I called him and we we just spent time again, this unwanted fraternity. Very. He had me share my story. I get done with my story. There's a long pause on the other end.
::Greg Tonkinson
He's crying and I read his book. I'm thinking, Jerry, why are you, like, comparatively?
::Greg Tonkinson
And he said, Greg, you're about to go through what I've been through, and I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. So I'm weeping for you. And again, beauty and ashes, he said, but I get you. And like I say, like, you know, I somewhere they ask me, have you ever met a widow or a widower, a young widow or widower
::Greg Tonkinson
th,: ::Greg Tonkinson
I have found great value post: ::Greg Tonkinson
you know God, why why why me?
::Greg Tonkinson
And instead of trying to answer that question, it's just embracing the reality that lives you. And so what are you going to do with it? And we've tried the best we can to avail ourselves to others and just broker relationships with, hey, I know someone who went through something similar. Can I put you in touch with that person for nothing more than you know, what can happen over a cup of coffee when two people get each other?
::Greg Tonkinson
And so we just thought, man of God, if we could be used in that way,
::Greg Tonkinson
that's good enough for us.
::Pat McCalla
You know
::Pat McCalla
that phrase I jotted it down here really quick when you said it. Do you get me such a powerful phrase. And I think that's what's so powerful about that Hebrews passage where it talks about that we have this high priest
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
to Jesus, who faced the brokenness of this world and waded into the muck and mire.
::Pat McCalla
He stood at funerals and cried over friends, over his
::Greg Tonkinson
dad. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
others.
::Pat McCalla
So we actually pray to a God. Now, when we're deep in our grief,
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
who gets us?
::Greg Tonkinson
Well, I.
::Greg Tonkinson
Felt in grief.
::Greg Tonkinson
and I couldn't write the book, quite honestly. The tagline is an authentic healing that can only come through Christ. That was the that was the impetus for the book. I wasn't I didn't want to write another self-help, hey, just follow these seven steps. This is not that kind of book. This is here's my story. But at the end of every chapter, it's how how does Jesus relate to any of this?
::Greg Tonkinson
And so when I go through each chapter, I bring it back to here's how our Savior related to pain and suffering. Here's how I relate to isolation here. Here's how we're related to knowing what was coming in terms of enduring pain. Just so you you would get the focus off of this guy named Greg who went through something tragic to know, here's your authentic healing.
::Greg Tonkinson
Lean into Jesus. And that was my hope and prayer was, hey, it's all about your walk with him, not how well we connect. If I can help you, praise God. But this is about understanding your Savior went through far worse, but deeply, deeply understands your pain and wants to walk with you through it.
::Pat McCalla
It's incredible I mean that's to me that's one of the greatest hopes
::Greg Tonkinson
That is
::Pat McCalla
painful things in my life, when I realize I'm praying to a God who understands, like
::Greg Tonkinson
oh,
::Pat McCalla
he knows what it's like, that raw emotion that, it doesn't make sense. Those things he he he understands that. So.
::Pat McCalla
And, Greg, this is why I'm so glad you're here.
::Pat McCalla
And I'm
::Greg Tonkinson
::Pat McCalla
story. Because this is a universal issue.
::Greg Tonkinson
It is.
::Greg Tonkinson
There's not
::Pat McCalla
a single person who's listening. Their story is a little different than yours.
::Greg Tonkinson
Absolutely.
::Pat McCalla
story is different than yours. I haven't had to say goodbye to a
::Greg Tonkinson
sure
::Pat McCalla
like that. And I can't imagine the pain that that would have. But we've all felt dealt with grief.
::Pat McCalla
Scott Peck wrote a book back in the 70s. I can't remember the name of the book, but my mom would always quote it to me.
::Greg Tonkinson
Okay, the
::Pat McCalla
very first line, and this is the part she always quote to
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
life is hard. She'd always
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah, life is hard. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
And I always because I'm the I'm a mr.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah sure. Yeah. Right.
::Pat McCalla
But the longer I live,
::Greg Tonkinson
a more
::Pat McCalla
powerful that life is hard. You will not live a couple of decades on this planet without going through grief and lament. And then the Bible is full of talking about lamenting.
::Greg Tonkinson
It is.
::Pat McCalla
But Greg, on the same side of that, though,
::Pat McCalla
I think because of the culture and every culture's got his issues. But there are so many myths to grief
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
and lies about grief that we kind of inherently bring art.
::Pat McCalla
And I'm going to own some of this, bring our families up
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
under
::Pat McCalla
that. Don't help us
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. Grief hits.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
again, just a silly example. But your, your, your child's pet dies.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
And so you go, well, well, we'll go get another pet. So you're,
::Pat McCalla
subtly teaching them that you can replace
::Greg Tonkinson
them. Right.
::Pat McCalla
that's not going to show you.
::Pat McCalla
You got to grieve
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. Died. That's right.
::Pat McCalla
them grieve that pet.
::Greg Tonkinson
That's right. And go get a new one.
::Greg Tonkinson
Sure.
::Pat McCalla
you got to go through that
::Greg Tonkinson
process. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
That's just
::Greg Tonkinson
One of many silly. Yeah. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
come up with. So I want to come back to
::Greg Tonkinson
that. Sure. A
::Pat McCalla
little bit about what you think some myths of grief
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
we should and shouldn't say to someone who's
::Greg Tonkinson
Absolutely.
::Pat McCalla
But let me go back to your story for a moment,
::Greg Tonkinson
sure. Okay.
::Pat McCalla
What was that like? Because I can't imagine, you know, and you talked about just the the weight of it pushing you to the
::Greg Tonkinson
floor. Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
come up, you got the house full of people.
::Pat McCalla
I imagine, though, that some of the more difficult times came a couple of weeks later when the people are no longer there and
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
kids to bed.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah, they it's amazing when,
::Greg Tonkinson
you think hearing that news is the worst it can get. Well, then you have to go shopping for, cemetery plot. Then you have to pick out a coffin.
::Greg Tonkinson
That. Then you have to, pick out burial clothes. Then when we had less than a week later, the we had a memorial service and then the funeral. They they opened the funeral, the funeral home and the doors, and and that was the first time I saw her since the accident. Because praise God that the young police officer knew enough.
::Greg Tonkinson
He was first on the scene. He had seen the accident, and then he came directly from there to my house. And when he did again, instinctive flee. I wanted to go rescue my wife. I, I understood, I think cognitively that she wasn't no longer here, but that that impulse took over of I need to go save her. And and so he physically had to kind of restrain me that that was not going to be a wise decision.
::Greg Tonkinson
Again, like I said, the card flipped over. Gas was pouring down on her, and it was it was just not a good scene. And and so I'm very thankful that my last memory of her wasn't seeing her in that accident.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Greg Tonkinson
But the next time I did see her was six days later in a coffin in a funeral home. And I don't want to be morose, but when when you think that the pain is the worst it's going to get is hearing that news. There's some naivete to that because the pain just. It's like a blade that just kept turning inside of me every time I looked around thinking, when is this going to end?
::Greg Tonkinson
And so yes, for for several weeks after that, just the decisions you have to make when you lose a loved one,
::Greg Tonkinson
they're just compounded. And so you just start drowning in those decisions. And so yeah, for me it was really that plus getting to a point where I went back to work and now you have to embrace the the incredible, difficult, awkward conversations with coworkers that they don't know what to say, they don't know how to.
::Greg Tonkinson
you know, and honestly, there were days where I just wanted to go to work and, and, just kind of forget about it for a little while. Like, like just but then a coworker would come up and be crying right in front of me and, and bring it all right back to, you know, memories and, I mean, I'll be driving somewhere and a song will come on or I'll see something and you're just right back in it so you don't ever get away from it.
::Greg Tonkinson
Including when you do. Like you just said, you wake up and my house was full of people, and then it slowly dissipates to nobody's there. I had a good friend that she. She's a hairdresser, and she recalls a few weeks after this, cutting someone's hair and just started crying. And that person had the, had the audacity to say, you know, it's been six weeks.
::Greg Tonkinson
And
::Greg Tonkinson
I know we may talk about this later, but like, things not to say.
::Pat McCalla
ahead and go
::Greg Tonkinson
Moments not to, bring that up. I, you know,
::Greg Tonkinson
again, I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think that most of us have not done enough in circles of grief to where we know both how to be a recipient of grief, but also how to be around those who are in grief. The church, I think, has struggled with,
::Greg Tonkinson
you know, what do we do when when someone we hear this news and and like you said, the fraternity is so big because it's not just you've qualify because you lost a loved one.
::Greg Tonkinson
Well, I've talked to people that have been single their whole life, and they can understand why. I've talked to people that have been divorced one, two, three times. They can understand why I've talked to people who've been abandoned by their adult children. Like the fraternity is so big because we cast the net out to say, if you've experienced pain, you're in the fraternity, and if you haven't, you probably just haven't lived long enough.
::Greg Tonkinson
It's coming. So
::Greg Tonkinson
it's a little bit of a misnomer that some people are not in the fraternity. I like to say not yet in the fraternity, but we're all in it on some degree. And and by the way, I don't want.
::Pat McCalla
mom, by the way, Greg.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
mom was trying to teach you when I was younger,
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. Because
::Pat McCalla
I was just I'm kind of wired like the Pollyanna.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
Younger people probably don't know what I'm
::Greg Tonkinson
talking about. Yeah, yeah. Right, right.
::Pat McCalla
I don't even want to hear
::Greg Tonkinson
that. Yeah. I
::Pat McCalla
don't want to hear that.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
And and again, the older I get, the wiser, I
::Greg Tonkinson
think.
::Greg Tonkinson
Right.
::Pat McCalla
it's not if you're if you're not in that fraternity, you will be.
::Greg Tonkinson
100%.
::Greg Tonkinson
and again, like we we look at people, we look at influencers. And you know for us I, you know, like the Tony Robbins of the day and they just look like they've got it all together and there's nothing just get around people and just get to know them. Like I said, ask them their story. You'll find out pretty quickly.
::Greg Tonkinson
We're all broken. And if we're just willing to admit that. But one of the ways we can help each other is, is to read books like mine or others that will help you understand, hey, here's some things to do. Here are some things not to do. I would receive cards, beautifully written cards, but they would say things like, she's watching you right now and she's an angel.
::Greg Tonkinson
And and someone actually wrote a book for me and the kids that, that I have yet to read to them because it just it wasn't accurate as to what happened. What happened
::Greg Tonkinson
in my world view is that Liam was killed on March 6th, immediately ushered into the throne room of God where she is praising him and enjoying his presence.
::Greg Tonkinson
And I'm not so sure that looking she's she's waiting, you know, like all believers are for us to to arrive. But I'm not sure they're asking God, hey, can I go back? And so we just have to get our theology a little more accurate, which I would say
::Greg Tonkinson
embrace someone's grief. Don't run from it. Allow them to express emotions in ways that they want to express it
::Greg Tonkinson
The Jewish people have a great Orthodox use, have a great cultural, tradition of sitting Shiva, and they'll go to someone's house for seven days and they'll take their cue from the person. And I thought, what a beautiful thing, that we're just going to go and sit in silence. And when you want to talk, we'll talk. When you want to laugh, will laugh when you want to cry, we will cry.
::Greg Tonkinson
But we're not going to dictate to and tell you how you need to feel. And I just wish there.
::Greg Tonkinson
Were
::Pat McCalla
so sometimes sitting shiva would be that you're just sitting silently
::Greg Tonkinson
You're for long periods of time now
::Greg Tonkinson
think about our culture today and how many of us get awkward when we're sitting silent for 30s, let alone an hour or two?
::Greg Tonkinson
So I think we just need to do better as a community, either in the church or outside of the church of hey, I don't understand this because I haven't experienced it, but I'm here for you.
::Greg Tonkinson
And by the way, I tell people all the time being there for someone I highly, highly recommend, in person.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yes, we have technology today that helps us, but I would, I would absolutely, if at all possible do this do face to face. If it's not, yes, FaceTime will work or a phone call. The worst you can do is text someone to to.
::Greg Tonkinson
ed. And again this is back in: ::Greg Tonkinson
importance, it loses its significance. And when you text someone, hey, I feel bad for you,
::Greg Tonkinson
you know that, I guess it is what it is.
::Greg Tonkinson
But when I'm sitting with someone and I can see their nonverbals and I can read their face and they say the same thing, I feel bad for you, it hits different. I always recommend,
::Greg Tonkinson
if my house were filled that very first night with texts and cards, or it would have done what it did, but man, my house was filled with people and those people were were agents of God Imago day, all experiencing their own pain from losing a daughter, from losing the sister, from losing an aunt, from losing a coworker, from losing a friend.
::Greg Tonkinson
I lost a wife. My kids lost a mom. We all are going to handle that differently, but we were all in the same space for ours. And like I said, there were moments where people were over here just sitting silent, and if you felt like just being quiet, go sit over there. There were people over here that were weeping if you needed to weep.
::Greg Tonkinson
When we read the Bible through the lens of our experiences, man, does it hit different. I've read the lament Psalms now in very, very different ways through different lenses. Oh my gosh,
::Greg Tonkinson
know, you read Psalm 13 and David is he's just he's he's lamenting, he's upset. He's frustrated. He says, God, where are you? Why have you forsaken me?
::Greg Tonkinson
anymore. Basically. And post: ::Greg Tonkinson
and they're going to say, ma'am, what, are you kidding me?
::Greg Tonkinson
Like, talk to me, tell me your story, and we're just going to hug it out because
::Greg Tonkinson
we get each other now. So I read some 13, I'm thinking, this is me, God, this is me I never thought would be me. And now it's me. The beauty of the lament Psalms is every single one of them end with praise.
::Greg Tonkinson
And so there's this reality which I try to encourage people, young and old alike, man, in your pain. Not only does God get you, but if you thought God was good before your pain, please, please, please don't give up on God is still good in your pain. And then I turn them to the lament Psalms because I need them to see the reality of these Bible characters that sometimes, again, we've
::Greg Tonkinson
we've misconstrued into only the good.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. So I turn them into lament psalms. And I just want them to understand, man, these people, they they were hurting. But one thing I appreciate about their, their walk with the Lord is they got to a point where they didn't give up. They said, God, you're still good. I still want to praise you. And it's almost like sometimes you get to, you know, the the back half of those lament psalms.
::Greg Tonkinson
You think it doesn't fit
::Greg Tonkinson
And I thought, what a beautiful picture of grief. It doesn't fit. It's not I can't give you five steps. I can just.
::Greg Tonkinson
Love that to.
::Greg Tonkinson
Be with you and walk with you in it.
::Greg Tonkinson
And so
::Pat McCalla
fit I love that
::Greg Tonkinson
And I've,
::Pat McCalla
preached on some of those lament psalms. I wish I could go back and redo those
::Greg Tonkinson
back because
::Pat McCalla
Because they do it. You're right. I mean, again, listeners, please go read some of those lament psalms, especially if you are grieving because they are raw
::Greg Tonkinson
They're raw. Sometimes you're like,
::Pat McCalla
I can't believe they said that to God.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
But then all of a sudden they're praising God at the end, it's like, this doesn't fit.
::Greg Tonkinson
right.
::Pat McCalla
What a picture of grief. That's what makes it so difficult, isn't it?
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. Doesn't make sense.
::Greg Tonkinson
It doesn't. And yet
::Greg Tonkinson
I got the knock on the door and and so very few of us, I think rightly so, we don't go into the day saying, I want to learn all about grief so I can prepare myself. You're just living life. And all of a sudden that cul de sac 2.5 kids turned into, you're going to be a widow.
::Greg Tonkinson
Deal with it. And I'm like, okay, I don't I don't know the first thing about dealing with it, which is no prep, which is funny because, you know, at that time I had my master's in divinity. I was working on my doctorate. So you would look at maybe the profile of the person and say, well, if there's anyone that can handle it, you know, you fit into that.
::Greg Tonkinson
No, you're a fish out of water. You're in over your head. If you think you can handle grief when it comes your way, the best thing you do is lean into to lean into Jesus and then surround yourself with people that love you and care about you, and to be vulnerable to the point of don't hide your story again.
::Greg Tonkinson
Be discreet with how much you share, but don't. Don't play it as like, this is just a part of me. No, this is you. This is. This is a part of your story now. And it's it's about how you're going to handle it. And what I noticed was
::Greg Tonkinson
when you experience grief, people are watching you. They want to know, hey, how are you doing it?
::Greg Tonkinson
Because I'm either in it or my family members in it. I've got a coworker that's in it like we're all searching for. Hey, how are you doing it? And let's not be pretentious and say, well, I'm doing it the right way, but I think there are healthier ways to do it. And then there are unhealthier ways to do it.
::Greg Tonkinson
And the fraternity is just about helping people engage in those healthier ways to do it.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
I really like how you put that. There's healthy ways and unhealthy ways to put it because because again, like you just said, grief is one of those things that creates a level playing field,
::Greg Tonkinson
right?
::Greg Tonkinson
It does exactly.
::Pat McCalla
be upper class. You've got so many letters after your name that
::Greg Tonkinson
alphabet
::Pat McCalla
soup type thing and you got it all together.
::Pat McCalla
But
::Greg Tonkinson
and now you're sleeping alone now. Yeah.
::Greg Tonkinson
Now that
::Pat McCalla
same level as that person who. So
::Pat McCalla
it kind of levels the playing
::Greg Tonkinson
really does.
::Pat McCalla
But on that level playing field there's healthy and unhealthy ways to deal
::Greg Tonkinson
with it. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
And again, that's what I was alluding to earlier. I think that culturally we we'd be a little surprised if we really stepped back and started thinking through
::Greg Tonkinson
yeah,
::Pat McCalla
how we were raised, whether it's by our family or our culture or school or church or, you know, whatever it is that some of these myths of grief that we that we picked up, that we didn't even realize.
::Greg Tonkinson
it's right.
::Greg Tonkinson
And I and I would say, Pat, that,
::Speaker 1
Hey, we hope you've enjoyed this episode so far. Be sure to like and subscribe to not miss a future podcast! Okay, let's get back to the episode.
::Greg Tonkinson
you know, the Bible talks a lot about wise counsel. And sometimes I think we just look at wise counsel when I need to make a business decision or when I need to, you know, what college should I go to? Or, you know, wise counsel also applies to how do I handle grief and how do I deal with pain?
::Greg Tonkinson
How do I deal with interpersonal relationships? How do I raise my kids now as a single dad, how do I date as a 42 year old guy who hasn't dated for decades? Like surround yourself with men and women who either have been down the road a little further than you have, have demonstrated a clearer, albeit imperfect, walk with the Lord people that you will confide in.
::Greg Tonkinson
I mean, honestly, I remember: ::Greg Tonkinson
young 40s, got small kids. Is that like is as my ship sailed or is there another person out there?
::Greg Tonkinson
So we start making decisions out of impulse and that is that is very dangerous.
::Greg Tonkinson
And now, you know, for me, when I started dating again, the worst thing I could have done was done that on my own. I mean, I have three kids now that are looking at who's going to be a person maybe in their life that's going to be their step mom, that's going to be their mom. Like it's going to take over that maternal aspect of their lives.
::Greg Tonkinson
Well, that's a decision you don't want to make foolishly. So to do that on my own, well,
::Greg Tonkinson
if I'm not going to do it on my own, that means I've got to be transparent with people. I got to be vulnerable people. I have to have I have to allow people to give their opinion on who I should date, how I should date one.
::Greg Tonkinson
So again, we've got to break. We've got to get rid of that pride and step into an era of humility, which, you know, unfortunately, it just keeps stacking up. In other words, God, I just went through this painful experience. Now you're asking me vulnerable. Like, when does it end? And I'm telling you, it doesn't end. But
::Greg Tonkinson
I tell people this all the time, I've never had more than I've had in the past 15 years.
::Greg Tonkinson
I've never given away more than I've given away in the past 15 years. I've. I've laughed deeply in these past 15 years. I've rejoiced greatly. In these past 15 years.
::Greg Tonkinson
People ask, and it's it's a no win question. So again, if we're taking notes on what to do, what not to do, don't ever ask someone, do you want it back?
::Greg Tonkinson
If you could wave a wand and have it not have happened, would you? Because so much has happened since then. It's an unfair question that everyone involved, including me, and it puts you in a very difficult position because now the tension is, well, of course I want my wife back. And now I'm married to this other woman whom I deeply love.
::Greg Tonkinson
I've got kids, I've got a grandkid now, so don't ever ask that question. You can't go back. And so it's there's no win in that.
::Greg Tonkinson
So since then, yeah, Jennifer and I have had this in the last chapter in the book. It's called wonderfully messy because that's our that's our life right now. It's wonderful and it's incredibly messy.
::Greg Tonkinson
And that's the reality we're in. Yeah.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
so let's, let's land there for just a moment. Probably have some listeners and some of them are going through grief right
::Greg Tonkinson
now. Yeah. Getting to your story. Sure.
::Pat McCalla
Some of them, like all of us have been in those situations where you're sitting in the room now, I'm like, I don't know what to
::Greg Tonkinson
say.
::Greg Tonkinson
Right?
::Pat McCalla
So give us a you've referenced a few, but what are some things that you would say, like, don't say this
::Greg Tonkinson
or yeah,
::Pat McCalla
You've given us a
::Greg Tonkinson
few. Yeah. Give us a few more. Sure.
::Pat McCalla
then we'll do that. Things to say or
::Greg Tonkinson
awesome.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. Yeah I would say on the don't list I would include in that don't predict how they should feel or when they should feel. And so it's not great to tell someone you should be feeling a certain way. There were moments where, I mean, and everyone who's gone through this can relate. You will go through the the the array of emotions in one day, even in one hour.
::Greg Tonkinson
And so you could be laughing hilariously at a memory, a fond memory, and then that same memory will bring you to tears.
::Greg Tonkinson
And so.
::Greg Tonkinson
To.
::Greg Tonkinson
You. Super confusing. I did a
::Greg Tonkinson
Ted talk,: ::Greg Tonkinson
when you couch that in, I've got to raise kids. I've got to go to work. I've got to be productive. I've got to, you know, it just gets super confusing really fast. And then all of a sudden you're down the rabbit hole of, what is this all for? Is is God still good? I mean, all of that.
::Greg Tonkinson
So,
::Pat McCalla
and so. The worst thing to say then, is for someone to come in and go like, hey, Greg, you
::Greg Tonkinson
You're laughing.
::Pat McCalla
stage of grief right now should be this.
::Greg Tonkinson
hundred percent.
::Greg Tonkinson
You're exactly right. Like you, you know, let's say three weeks in, you should be feel and you try to predict that, often.
::Greg Tonkinson
so that's number one. Number two is don't try to project your feelings onto that person because again, you have a relationship with that individual that is unique to you. You may have been a best friend.
::Greg Tonkinson
You may have been a high school, alum. You may have been a coworker, and you come in to conversations feeling a certain way. Perfect. It was it was unfortunate when people felt a certain way and then thought I had to feel that same way. And so just don't project your emotions onto the other person. Accept them where they're at
::Greg Tonkinson
and vice versa.
::Greg Tonkinson
The third thing I would say is don't try to predict it. Or don't don't try to be a prophet or a theologian in the moment.
::Pat McCalla
very
::Greg Tonkinson
I love, I love Bible verses. I love being encouraged by Bible verses.
::Greg Tonkinson
What was discouraging was people trying to have me remember where Leanne is, after the accident. What she's doing.
::Greg Tonkinson
I know where she is. I know what she's doing, but she's my wife, and I'm not going to, you know, if I. If I live the average number of years, I'm not going to see her for another four decades, four and a half decades. I get it. I just it there were moments where I just didn't need to hear that I wanted my wife back, and I didn't.
::Greg Tonkinson
It didn't bring me any comfort to know that she's in heaven. You know, we couch those phrases with, God had a better plan for her. God's timing is perfect. She's in a better place.
::Greg Tonkinson
That you got one?
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. No, the better place is in my house right now. You know, reading with my kids, like, in my opinion, that was the better place. Now, I know theologically, I get what you're saying. I just don't need to hear it right now.
::Pat McCalla
No, Greg, I, I talked to someone who lost a spouse, and that was exactly what they said to me. They because they were they were confused
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
and they said, you know what? I'm tired of hearing. I'm tired of hearing people say that she's in a better
::Greg Tonkinson
place. Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
I get it. But you know where I want.
::Pat McCalla
I want her in
::Greg Tonkinson
right now.
::Greg Tonkinson
Right now I wonder in the more honestly I'm making break up
::Pat McCalla
kids. That's where I want her. So he goes, this is confusing me more.
::Greg Tonkinson
yeah. And and again, we feel we try to fill the, the silence
::Greg Tonkinson
with words and again just just own it. Sit in the silence. Be okay with that I remember and again sitting shiva is when someone has passed away. I remember going to a coworker's house. I was at a state, I was at a conference doing something and and I got a call from his wife and said, hey, we got some bad news.
::Greg Tonkinson
His health is deteriorating. He's invited 6 or 7 of you to come over Friday night, whatever it was, sit around the campfire. Would you. Would you do that? I texted about I'm honored that you would consider me a part of that group. Now, again, he hadn't passed away yet, but it was inevitable.
::Greg Tonkinson
6 or 7 of us sitting around a campfire for 3 or 4 hours.
::Greg Tonkinson
I think we said maybe ten words. It was profound to where to which the day after, two days after, I got an email from from the wife saying, I just can't tell you how much that meant to him and I. And I want to say if my timing's right. Somewhere less than a year later, he passed away.
::Greg Tonkinson
none of us will forget that moment. You don't have to fill the void with with words, even if they're, you know, scripture verses or whatnot. Like read the room and pick your moment. But understand that you don't understand what that person is going through, even if you've gone through something similar. I, I
::Greg Tonkinson
took my kids ten years after the accident to a hotel.
::Greg Tonkinson
The four of us sat in a room and I said, I'm so sorry that this is way late because now they're, What are 14, 16 and 20? And we're all sitting in this room. And I said, I, I want you to tell me what what were you going through? Because I have my mom still alive. You lost your mom.
::Pat McCalla
So you you didn't. You're telling them, I don't know,
::Greg Tonkinson
I don't know
::Pat McCalla
wife, but you lost a mom, I don't understand.
::Greg Tonkinson
sense.
::Greg Tonkinson
Then, that in that time frame, they graduate from high school. One of them got married, or was going to get married. They had jobs, like. I mean, they, you know, they had gone through experiences without their mom. And I pulled us all together and we had this beautiful, heartbreaking moment of, I don't get it. I need you to help me understand.
::Greg Tonkinson
So that would be on the long story short, that would be on the side of what to say, I love you, I care about you. Help me understand what you're what you're experiencing. Help me understand
::Greg Tonkinson
what it means to lose someone.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Greg Tonkinson
At your time, at your discretion.
::Greg Tonkinson
And then finally, I would say it is cliche, but it was super helpful to have people say, name what I can do. And so that the tweak on that, if I could say Pat is not hey, let me know if I can help you. It's too vague. And in the moment, I didn't know I was crushed with everything from paying bills to getting the kids to school to.
::Greg Tonkinson
So when someone says, hey, you know, just what can I do? I didn't know how to answer that. It was better when someone said, I'm going to do something. Here are three things. Here are five things that I think you need. You know, you could use. Pick two, pick one. And they were practical things. It was, you know, getting groceries.
::Greg Tonkinson
It was helping to pay bills. It was taking the kids to, school. I mean,
::Greg Tonkinson
just use common sense, look around and figure out if I were in that position. What might I need help with? Create a short list. Tell them. Here's the list. You got to pick one of them.
::Greg Tonkinson
Because one of the things that that I failed early on in my grief was, what's cathartic for people is to help you, that there is a sense of of belonging, but also a sense of I'm doing something for this person when I'm actually doing something.
::Greg Tonkinson
And so, yes, absolutely covet your prayers and, you know, help that person by praying for them. But when you get practical with a I'm going to get you groceries, do you like 2% milk or skim? It was such a relief to come home knowing that the refrigerator was full, that the kids. I had a great friend.
::Greg Tonkinson
again, I'm a widow.
::Greg Tonkinson
I'm raising a ten, six and four year old. My four year old, my daughter. I don't know how to do girls hair. So I had a friend. She's a hairdresser. She made me these little index cards. Step one. Brush the hair. Step two. Like, like braiding hair. Like. How do you know what's a waterfall braid? And what's a French braid and what's, I don't know, any of these things.
::Greg Tonkinson
She listed all these things. I pasted them up on my bathroom mirror, and Malia would get in the bathroom, and I would just. Step one. Okay. Step two take I'm reading note cards, and I thought, I can't tell you how much that helped me. So just just be realistic and use common sense and just figure out, okay, what would that person need?
::Greg Tonkinson
Don't overwhelm them, but come alongside with real pragmatic things and it will bless them tremendously.
::Pat McCalla
man. Such great advice. So Greg
::Pat McCalla
hear you doing this right now as you're talking, but it's been 15
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah, I'm
::Pat McCalla
I'm sure there's a process with that. But
::Pat McCalla
for some that are listening to this, maybe they've lost someone that's close to them. You know, especially if you're talking like a spouse.
::Greg Tonkinson
Sure.
::Pat McCalla
do you honor the loved one.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
And I think early on in the grief you're just overwhelmed with grief.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah, yeah. Going
::Pat McCalla
going to come a time where you're starting to move on.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
How did you
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
that? Because now it it's been 15
::Greg Tonkinson
years
::Pat McCalla
see you doing both really well in this
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
hear you. You talking about how much you love your current
::Greg Tonkinson
wife? Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
your family now that you have and the joy that you've had.
::Pat McCalla
But you're still honoring your wife that you lost.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yep.
::Pat McCalla
That's got to be a little confusing
::Greg Tonkinson
when you're. Yeah. What's coming out of that?
::Greg Tonkinson
Oh, man. Yeah. And so
::Greg Tonkinson
point number one, I guess is, encouragement. Number one is don't rush the process. Way too many people do things impulsively. That really, puts you down a dangerous path of of making really poor decisions. And so this rebound effect of I've got to now, make up for what has been lost and know, like trust in the Lord, trust his timing.
::Greg Tonkinson
Again, I can't emphasize this enough. Surround yourself with people that that either have been down a little bit further, that love you more than you think. They love you. Surround yourself with wise counsel because when it comes to okay, that initial wave of I'm a widow, it will it will dissipate to the point of, okay, how do I live as a widow?
::Greg Tonkinson
How do I function as a widow and not just survive,
::Greg Tonkinson
but function that I want to be proactive and I want to be a responsible person in society and whatnot. And so it was about, two years or so for me where I started to realize, this is my life, this is my reality now, God, do you want me to be single?
::Greg Tonkinson
Should I start looking for a future mate?
::Greg Tonkinson
I think I'm an interrupt. Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
because I don't want our audience to
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. It took two years. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
which, again, I think that people can make that grief. It's so special. Something, really deep
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
like that. It's going to take some
::Greg Tonkinson
time,
::Pat McCalla
two years before you see
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. The
::Pat McCalla
reality of like, this is my life now.
::Greg Tonkinson
And I and. No, no. And I tell everyone,
::Greg Tonkinson
th,: ::Greg Tonkinson
And I know in Arizona it's like one season, you know, it's hot, but it's still it's seasonal
::Greg Tonkinson
and I needed to see what, you know, Christmas was like I needed to see what birthdays were like. And so I got through year one and and and then what you realize is there's in our lives, there's things are cyclical and things are repetitive.
::Greg Tonkinson
And so I got through year one and realized, oh, this is the second summer without my wife. Yeah. That's that looks familiar. Yeah, that feels familiar. I don't want it, but I'm getting used to it. So at the end of year two, I realized, okay, I think I can predict now, we would go to the cemetery every, every after church every Sunday.
::Greg Tonkinson
That dropped down to twice a week. It dropped down to once a week. Right? I mean, Mother's Day, Leanne's birthday, I mean. So year two, I was like, okay, that feels not right. I just it feels familiar.
::Greg Tonkinson
So that's when I started to venture into, okay, what's next for me? And again, never ever forgetting but always looking at the reality and the future of okay, what God what what might be next.
::Greg Tonkinson
So that was a, you know, give it a year at least. Second thing was I looked at my kids and thought, this is no longer about me. But, you know, we all get married, typically younger. Not all of us, but most of us get young, married, younger life where there is a little bit of a myopic kind of feeling of this is about me.
::Greg Tonkinson
Like it's about me and my my spouse. Well, that ain't the case no more, right? And so I'm looking at three kids and my stage of life, probably whomever I'm going to meet
::Greg Tonkinson
also has a history of some sort and may involve kids. And so, sure enough, prior to dating Jennifer, I went to Leanne's mom, my mother in law, who they all live here locally and and so my parents live locally.
::Greg Tonkinson
Leanne's parents live locally, deeply involved in their grandkids lives and I thought, there's no way I'm going to start this process of maybe finding a future mate without full, acceptance. And and I don't want to say clearance, but some sort of of conversation with people who also lost a loved one.
::Greg Tonkinson
And I just I couldn't imagine future occasions where we're all together and there's, there's, you know, friction and tension.
::Greg Tonkinson
So I went to Leanne's mom and I just said, listen, it, you know, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? And again, with tears in her eyes, she said, you need a wife and the kids need a mom. And so I'm. I'm excited for you. And so that began the journey of of God if, if you want this and and so I chose the route of of, dating online or dating apps and.
::Greg Tonkinson
And so Jennifer and I met in: ::Pat McCalla
Six.
::Greg Tonkinson
Six weeks in front of the school. It was on eHarmony. We were supposed to be on one of the commercials. I mean, it was a big deal.
::Greg Tonkinson
And then a month before the wedding, I went over to her house and called it off. And so you want to talk about, I mean, just one thing after another. I mean, we were merging two families, two homes, two, you know, it was like it was like business as being, you know, and I'm looking around thinking, this is my reality now.
::Greg Tonkinson
Like, I just sold my house. We're moving into her home. We're combining family. She's. This is such a, paramount decision. Am I doing it? Am I? Do I know this person? Six weeks. And so I went over there, and Jennifer's ex-husband had abandoned her and her kids. So she was dealing with incredible amounts of self-esteem and and abandonment issues.
::Greg Tonkinson
And now here comes this guy that she met, seemingly a nice guy, seemingly has it together, fell in love with my kids right away, and she got the knock on the door and it was me telling her, we can't get married right now. Well, we had already sent out invitations. I mean, it was just it was a nightmare on wheels, and we worked through the whole weekend as to why and how and whatnot.
::Greg Tonkinson
And our conclusion, after long discussions, was we were infatuated with each other. We think we're in love with each other, but we're not quite sure. And and if there is a decision that you need to make that you need to be sure on, it's this one. So we broke up for a few months. I was about 3 or 4 months, and it was again the clarity of God.
::Greg Tonkinson
By being in his word, we both separated in terms of like, we didn't talk to each other, didn't speak, and it was just kind of him revealing through his word and through conviction and whatnot, know that she is the one. And it was that surety that I went back to her house, I think, about 4 or 5 months later, knocked on the door again, and she answered.
::Greg Tonkinson
And this was after I got an email from her saying, I can't ever see you again because it's too painful. So when she opened the door and saw me and she'd given back my, I held the ring out and I said, I'm sure now, like, we can drive to Vegas. We'll just we'll settle this now. So we end up having a great family oriented wedding and but but I needed that surety.
::Greg Tonkinson
And so my encourage me in any way, Pat, is to our to our listeners.
::Greg Tonkinson
grief has this hold on you and we we talked about extensively but one of the things is it throws you into situations that you think you're making the right decision, and you're just blinded by so many other factors. I would just encourage you get people around you that can see a little more clearly.
::Greg Tonkinson
And you can. I was I mean, we met down in a coffee shop here in town. She walked through the door and I was just like, I can't believe, like she's going to she like, is that is this real? She came up to me and said, is your name Greg? And I thought, I'm back in high school again.
::Greg Tonkinson
Like, this is so, so we're infatuated like this person cares about me, you know? And so pump the brakes. This is a long term decision. Make sure you're doing the right thing because other lives are at stake here. I mean, I looked at she has two, two boys, like there were five kids that, you know, we were making decisions on their behalf.
::Greg Tonkinson
Right. And so, yeah, we've been married for coming up on 12 years now. And and again, wonderfully messy, but I wouldn't I wouldn't change it.
::Greg Tonkinson
I love that wonderfully. Yeah, I love
::Pat McCalla
that. Well, Greg, man, thank you so
::Greg Tonkinson
much.
::Greg Tonkinson
Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
Scott Peck start his book with Life is Hard. And it is. And
::Greg Tonkinson
some
::Pat McCalla
of our listeners, myself included, yourself included. If God gives us any more years
::Pat McCalla
we're going to go through some
::Greg Tonkinson
more. I expect it
::Pat McCalla
life is hard.
::Pat McCalla
And so you really helped, I think, create a roadmap for us, how to navigate it. But then also how to help other people
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah, you're not alone. Yeah.
::Greg Tonkinson
Don't ever think you are. So find those people, read some books. Surround yourself with people that will pour into you because it's coming. If it hasn't already.
::Pat McCalla
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
Is there let me let me finish with this one more question and then we'll go to the two treats. In a way.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Speaker 1
As we're wrapping up this episode. Be sure to leave us a five star review. And if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment on something you'll take away. All right, let's hop back into the remainder of the episode.
::Pat McCalla
Is there a way tips for people to prepare? Like you were saying, there's no
::Greg Tonkinson
way to
::Pat McCalla
prepare for that knock on the
::Greg Tonkinson
door, right? I get that right.
::Pat McCalla
But at the same time, are there
::Greg Tonkinson
things.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yes.
::Pat McCalla
doing now knowing that I'm going to go through some
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
at some point?
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. Pat, I would say, ask people their story and tell your story. The more we're about the business of, again, not, counting any any pain as insignificant, it could be financial loss, it could be health issues, it could be relationship issues. Don't be afraid to tell your story. But if you're not in communities where that's accepted, where where you feel like you're on the outside always sharing your story, but not hearing other people's because of the dynamic of that community, I would seek other communities.
::Greg Tonkinson
We've got to find places where, again, I don't want to be weird about this, but there's got to be moments and room so that I have a network of people that know me, and now that I'm getting to know them, I think that the church is a great place to do that. There are other groups that may be, equally powerful.
::Greg Tonkinson
And that way when that happens, I'm not prepared necessarily, but I've shared myself up relationally to where we're going to do this together, and we're going to link arms and we're going to walk through this together. If I don't have those relationships, when that grief happens. I've met so many people, sadly heartbreaking when they tell me I'm alone in this, I'm away from maybe family.
::Greg Tonkinson
I'm out of state. I'm, you know, new at a job, whatever it may be, and I, I have no one, and my heart just breaks for them.
::Greg Tonkinson
So you'll never be fully prepared. But when I know your story and you know mine well enough to where we're below the surface, then when one of us does experience grief.
::Greg Tonkinson
Man, you're the first one I'm calling. And so then we can understand it together and again. Pray for each other, walk through it together and, and encourage one another along the way.
::Pat McCalla
what I thought of when you were talking about that? And again, this goes back to the just the culture we live in. The time we live in with social media and social media is not all bad.
::Greg Tonkinson
right? Absolutely.
::Pat McCalla
But the downside of it is I think if any time in history there's this subtle lie that that being well known and known well is the same thing and are not the same thing.
::Greg Tonkinson
No. Jonathan Haidt, Jonathan Haidt, he wrote The Anxious Generation. He has this great little blurb in there, and he says there's a difference between community and networks and he says, community. They're hard to get in. They're hard to get out of people. No, you in it. And
::Greg Tonkinson
there's a level of trust involved in that community network works.
::Greg Tonkinson
Strangers. They come and go when they want. Well, he said, what's fascinating is they're equally influential. So his encouragement is find yourself in community. It doesn't mean you can't be a part of a few networks, but understand their purpose. Find yourself in community. Because when we deal with grief, it's that group that I'm going to lean into, not my network.
::Pat McCalla
What was the name of that book.
::Greg Tonkinson
The Anxious Generation?
::Pat McCalla
I want to look that up. I really like that,
::Pat McCalla
description
::Greg Tonkinson
Community versus networks. You need you need both.
::Pat McCalla
community when you go through the networks not going to
::Greg Tonkinson
know.
::Greg Tonkinson
It's not.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Greg Tonkinson
That's exactly right.
::Pat McCalla
Well Greg, two truths and a lie.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
The irony is a no gray areas.
::Pat McCalla
I'm going to ask you to lie to
::Greg Tonkinson
me. So give me three statements. Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
Two will be truths.
::Greg Tonkinson
All right. We and I will try to guess. Okay.
::Greg Tonkinson
I one and all, expense paid trip, European cruise. It's fascinating. I, I broke my femur bone. Thickest bone in your body when I was in high school,
::Pat McCalla
Okay.
::Greg Tonkinson
and,
::Greg Tonkinson
I interviewed for 45 minute interview with a former president. US president.
::Pat McCalla
Okay. I'm going to say the the interview with the president is true, because that's just so
::Greg Tonkinson
far. I got to be true. That's true.
::Greg Tonkinson
It is. Yeah, it is I yeah. President Bush yeah. Did you really. Yeah. 45 minute. Yeah. 500 people in the audience. And he and I sat for 45 minutes in front of them. And he is politics aside. He is he was such a grandfatherly type. He likes to talk, which when you do interviews is super helpful. And so I was just throwing him questions.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah, I was just I was just throwing him questions. And it was it was a highlight of my life. It was phenomenal. Oh yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Super fun.
::Greg Tonkinson
I've heard
::Pat McCalla
that from people that I know. A few people that knew him personally
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
and said that he is a
::Greg Tonkinson
There was that it really honestly. I mean, it was we were standing Mac pal from third day was out there singing, and so were behind the curtain. And Mac was running late. So there's 15 minutes or so where it was unaccounted for. It's me, President Bush, Secret Service, and that was it. And I'm thinking, who get like, why am I here?
::Greg Tonkinson
And just, you know, for whatever reason. So I just don't take those time for granted. But it was it was a wonderful, wonderful evening.
::Pat McCalla
Well, one gift from that is what? What better if you have to do two truths and a lie. How many
::Greg Tonkinson
people get to stand in a 45 minute.
::Greg Tonkinson
Interview with President Bush?
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah, I'm a: ::Pat McCalla
You won a European cruise and broke your femur. I'm going to say you broke your femur in high school
::Greg Tonkinson
And you're like, you're a prophet. Yeah. You're, Yeah, I was, playing football.
::Greg Tonkinson
And
::Pat McCalla
You still look athletic. You're
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. I mean, you did athletics when you were younger.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. Got the, back in New York again. The ground was hard. This was neighborhood football. The ground was hard, as in November. And someone threw me a duck pat lame duck pass and, had to wait for it to come down. As soon as I caught it, the kid hit from behind and landed on my left knee and the ground.
::Greg Tonkinson
One move in and he wasn't moving. And so it was. I mean, if you broke a stick, it was that sound. And everyone, like 16 year olds knew something really, really bad just happened. And yeah, and back in the day, it was back in the mid 80s. They took they took me to hospital. Well, they don't do this anymore.
::Greg Tonkinson
But they gave my dad the option of will either do surgery or put them in traction for a month. So traction is where they drill a pin through your shinbone. They hang weights off the bed and basically it pulls the the bone apart to where it heals itself. So you can avoid surgery. And my dad's a yeah, you know, traction it is.
::Greg Tonkinson
So I was in the hospital for a month with this pin in my leg and and and sure enough the bone healed, while 30 days later the doc comes in and he's like, hey, looks like, you know, we're about good. So we're just going to take the pin out. Well, it's a, it's a I still have it.
::Greg Tonkinson
It's a threaded screw that's about this long. And it goes all the way through your shinbone. And then they attach the weights to the end. And so I'm like, okay that's cool. So we all me down to surgery or whatever. So he just closes the curtain in the room and he tells my parents, hey, go stand outside because it's about to get real in here.
::Greg Tonkinson
And so my parents, I'm 16, so, so the nurse is standing there, and so it's just me, him and the nurse. He little. I'm not kidding. The true story. He pulls out
::Greg Tonkinson
a U-shaped, hand drill and a pair of bolt clippers and I'm like, is this a horror? I'm like, where am I right now? And he cuts off one of the ends of the screws.
::Greg Tonkinson
And so now it's just my chin and the other end sticking out. He walks around to the other side of the bed. He clamps on this hand drill and I'm like, what is happening right now? Like, stop, you know? And so he says, okay, here's the deal. Grab the nurse's hand, grab the back of the bedpost. And he said, I'm going to start.
::Greg Tonkinson
I'm going to start getting the screw out of your leg because it's a threaded screw. And he said, here's the problem is, I've done this long enough to know,
::Greg Tonkinson
no matter what you say, I'm not stopping because it's going to be a lot of pain. I'm just going to tell you that up front. If I stop, I'll never start again.
::Greg Tonkinson
You'll, like, pass out. If I go too fast, it'll rip the bone. So I've got to do it. Very methodical, very, you know, carefully. And so I'm going to count to three and just start going. And I'm not kidding you. Worst pain I've ever had in my life. Worst pain. Like worse than the break was. Worse than the femur break.
::Greg Tonkinson
yeah. So that was my, glorious. Yeah. Right. Recalling back to 16. So yeah, I don't recommend anyone break their femur. Well, I.
::Greg Tonkinson
Know they do it that way.
::Greg Tonkinson
I'm hoping they don't. It was just like archaic of.
::Greg Tonkinson
And that that sounds like kind of the old Western watch. Right where they.
::Greg Tonkinson
Bite the bullet. Yeah.
::Greg Tonkinson
Bite this. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, great. Anyway.
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah. Thanks for having me, Pat. Absolutely.
::Greg Tonkinson
It's,
::Pat McCalla
It's amazing how as painful as that story, was
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah,
::Pat McCalla
still is in some ways how God is using it in so many ways, in
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
so I appreciate your
::Greg Tonkinson
Absolutely.
::Greg Tonkinson
Many
::Pat McCalla
times through this interview, but vulnerability
::Greg Tonkinson
Yeah.
::Pat McCalla
and you've been very vulnerable
::Greg Tonkinson
and I appreciate it. Yeah.
::Greg Tonkinson
Thanks, Pat.
::Host
Greg story is a powerful reminder that grief doesn't need to be fixed. It needs to be felt, shared, and walked through together. If this episode spoke to you, share it with someone who might need the encouragement. Don't forget to like, follow and subscribe! See you next time! A no gray areas.
