Interview Swap! Let's REALLY Meet Our Podcast Host Pat McCalla | Ep. 76 featuring Brandon Lopez

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Unknown

Well, that's cracking. Everybody. It's Pat McCall with no gray areas. And today's episode, we got something special for you.

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Unknown

We got a nice little switcheroo. We heard you were hungry for a new episode, so we served up a hot plate for you. Stay for this episode of No Gray Areas.

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Unknown

What's crackin, everybody? I'm Brandon Lopez. And I'm interviewing the one and only yours truly, Pat McCollough. We're switching things up today because we're going to interview your host of No Gray Areas, Pat McCall. You've seen him every week doing no gray areas. But do you actually know this guy? Do you actually really like him? I know some of you guys.

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Unknown

I've been following him for a long time. Some of you guys are very new to this, not knowing who Pat McCall is, But he's real. He's a legend. He's not just a myth. He's also my father in law, a great friend of mine. Here he is. Wow. That's quite the intro. Yeah. And you're my my favorite son in law.

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Unknown

You could just say my only son in law, but my favorite. So you could just stop A favorite. That's all right, too. Yes. Yeah. So I'm excited to be here. I'm super stoked that you asked me to do the switcheroo with you. Yeah, Yeah. So let's dive in. We're going to fun. All right, So I want to do a little break, You know, icebreaker with you.

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Unknown

I was thinking of something that would be really good for us to talk about, and I think every man wants to talk about this. All right, so top three, I'm going to start with your third. Second, then first, I want you to rank the you're, in your opinion, the three toughest sports. my goodness. And this will be a great reflection of you.

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Unknown

Yeah. So. Okay, good. Okay. We're going to go with not not just sports, but we're going to say sporting events. How about sporting events? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So we're going to go with number three is wrestling. Number two is the Ironman Triathlon, and number one is the Tour de France. Now, you can tell you can tell that I raced bikes in my younger years because there's there's it's a little tainted but still you still race.

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Unknown

Do you actually see myself. Yeah yes against myself Yeah you put on the screen and you race. Yes. Yes. You know every July when the Tour de France comes on my my biking up quite a bit because I'm watching it. There are four hour long races and I'm pretending like I still have it. Yeah, I run in there, remind you to take some, you know.

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Unknown

Yes. Those carb. Yes, you know, gummies and everything. All right. So number three, why wrestling? I helped with a wrestling team once. I used to be good friends with The Wrestler, and so he would use me as his guinea pig. And he was. He outweighed me by a lot, and we would just rest. But so I never actually wrestled on a team.

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Unknown

But I saw like when you start talking about like 3 minutes and, and or 2 minutes and you think like, well, there's nothing to it. And I'm going I did some really, really difficult sports when I like racing, I mean, you're pushing yourself to the edge and then beyond. And I'd wrestle with him and I'd be like, I just couldn't believe how exhausting it was.

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Unknown

Like my whole body just hurt. And then when I was helping, I was we my my wife now and I, we did this athletic training class when we were in high school and we were helping out local high school and we helped our wrestling team and I saw their workouts and I was like, my goodness, I don't know if there's any other sport in high school.

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Unknown

I have workouts at this level, so nice. Did I answer correctly? That's actually a good answer. That would be that would have been my third pick. Okay. And what was that? Wrestling would be probably my first pick if it was just for like, the mentality. Yeah, Yeah. Because it's just like brute strength, brute endurance, just everything about it now.

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Unknown

So. So I know you're interviewing me, but just so I can help the audience know there's, there's some background to that because you're actually a trainer and you train people and you've done some, some, some wrestling, fighting training for that karate. Yeah. You actually have a Yeah, Yeah. So I have a what belt? yeah, I do have a black belt.

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Unknown

Yeah. In sashes up in that. But yeah, my, my buddy actually tried to convince me to do wrestling all throughout high school and I was not about the singlets like No thank you. But my senior year I was like in my senior year I was at the peak of like training for like MMD at the time. So I was like, I should probably just, you know, train wrestling.

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Unknown

And that's when I quickly learned like, okay, wrestling is yeah, it's wanted to. Phenomenal sport. Yeah, phenomenal sport. But definitely one of the hardest sports ever. Yeah. Now to you said Iron Man I did not think about okay so you probably know the more the people that don't know you're swimming I think like a mile or so in the water and then you get out you go right to 112 mile bike ride.

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Unknown

You know, I was taking about 5 hours on a bike and then a 26 mile run. Boom, boom, boom, right after another. All the things I Yeah, yeah, yeah. For my second one, I picked rugby. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because weight classes don't matter. Yeah. Remember when I throw down on that? Remember when I recently said, like, I think I was talking to my son Kyle, but I brought that up with you, and I'm like, Yeah, rugby's kind of a cool sport because you don't have to be like a freak of nature, like football.

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Unknown

And both of you looked at me like, Have you ever looked at rugby players? Yeah. And they're massive. Yeah. Fighters showed you a clip, too. Yeah. Yesterday called the Rhino Run. Yes. Do just look it up. AUDIENCE Look it up, look up, Rhino, run rugby. And you just see, like, this guy does not want to be in front of that.

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Unknown

I know there's a train. Yeah. All right. And then your number one, of course. Remind us what? Tour de France. Tour de France. Yeah. 21 days. You participate that every year? Yeah, I participate in it every year. Yeah. While they're riding 170 miles, I'm doing 15 or 20, but I, but I feel like I'm with them. It's, it's the miles they count them.

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Unknown

Yes, yes. Yeah. But it's an intense. It's intense. Yeah. My number one pick was hockey. What? Yeah. So I had a conversation with my buddy about this and he brought up some really good points. Granted, he is also super biased because he grew up, you know? Yeah. Doing hockey. But I want you to imagine now being on ice on on blades.

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Unknown

Right. It's actually going 30 miles per hour, hitting people as hard as you can into walls or plexiglass and people knocking people off on onto the ground, too. And not only that, you get upset with somebody. The ref's like, okay, with you fighting. It's not just okay. Like they back away. They're like that in every sport. I think we can agree with this.

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Unknown

I think every sport would benefit greatly if the ref just like, Yeah, just settle it. You're right. Basketball easy. You're right. Soccer. Just let them let your jawing at each other in the basketball court. But the rest of us back away and let you go at it for a few minutes. Settle it. No, I don't know if I'd say hockey's the most difficult, but I think if I could go back and pick any sport to play, it might be hockey.

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Unknown

It's got a little bit of everything. I mean, it's got the speed, you got the hand-eye coordination, the foot coordination, you get the hits, you get all that, and then it's such a fast game like can even if, if, if anybody's going to a hockey game, it sat right down on the ice. It's incredible The athletes they are and how intense it is.

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Unknown

Okay now that we got that through, yeah, there was some right answers in there. And you got one. Okay, good. Not one. Yeah. All right. So. love to give the listeners, you know, gray areas more of a context of background of you. And of course, I would like to go just hey, what's let's talk about your life story.

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Unknown

Right? But I think that's easy for me. Just say hey tell me about just give me like a chronological order of what you've been through. I think that's kind of boring. So I do want to do this, though. I want you to start with kind just the origin of your life, like where you came from. Just quickly, just give us a quick little snippet and picture and then I want to ask you some more like very rural, rural Montana.

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Unknown

We had one neighbor. I could see them across the horse pasture. I had one friend growing up outside of my my brother. And so I grew up would heat only my mom cooked on a wood cook stove. We grew our own food in the backyard. We can vegetable. I mean, I grew up almost like someone who was two or three generations back.

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Unknown

So there's a lot of good from that. I mean, my brother and I would disappear out on Saturday in the summertime or on a weekday, even in the summertime, it's so much different than what it is for people today. Like my brother and I. We would wake up in the morning and we would disappear and we'd come back in in Montana in the summer.

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Unknown

It's getting dark around 9:00 at night and there was no checking in. There was no texting. There was no we were just out in the woods, bears, cougars, mountain, you know, all that. No one was really worried about that. We're climbing trees. We're doing crazy stuff. We're floating the river. And so in some ways it was a magical childhood.

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Unknown

And I look back and I think, Well, what's the value of that? I think I learned a really, really good work ethic from it. And then you just having that kind of childhood, you just learn like some resiliency, like you just you have to figure things out. We're kind of on our own a lot back. I don't know if it's just my parents, but I think it was it was a lot of parents in those days.

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Unknown

Like, they didn't play with you, so to speak. Like, we didn't play games with them, so we were. We're kind of on our own on a lot of things. Somebody saw you. They probably had kids almost. Yeah, well, Tom was too. We'd come home and we'd come home at night and my dad would just make us strip down in the backyard and he just holds us off because we'd be just covered with dirt, just out, just being out there.

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Unknown

And and again, there was like, no, I can't imagine as a parent nowadays being like that, you know, my seven year old kid has been gone for ten or 12 hours and I don't even know where they are or if they're okay. That was just normal. And this is the time. No cell phones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no checking in.

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Unknown

There was not there wasn't even like, I need you to come home every 3 hours and check in. So it wasn't like that. We were riding horses. Like, just we just throw the reins on and just ride him bareback or needle horses. So it was, it was it was magical in some ways. It was fun. That wasn't what I was about to say.

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Unknown

Yeah, it's all magical. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So kind of give them a little bit more an idea of how small of a community you were in. What was your graduating high school class size? Yeah, great question. So we had one of the largest classes at that time. 18. Nice. Yeah. The class before us was one class. Well, yes.

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Unknown

Yeah, I know the class before like 12. So we were at our school was growing radically fat in 18. Yeah. So I married my high school sweetheart, but she didn't have a lot of choices. But to me or eight other guys, you know, she didn't have. So that's got to be better than I had, first of all. Yeah.

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Unknown

Yeah. I didn't have a lot of competition. That's one thing I had going for me. Easy, easy. So now what I want to do is the kind of direction I want to go into is I want to know more about what kind of person you were at certain age ages. So for instance, like, what was eight year old pet?

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Unknown

Like, I would say a couple of things, about eight year old pet. God was always very real to me. So I remember probably around eight years old, I would sit on the fence looking at the pasture with our neighbor's horses in it, and I would literally sit there with like my, my, my arm like this is kind of silly to say, but I would be like talking to Jesus like he was sitting next to me.

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Unknown

And it's always been that way. Like, I've just never struggled like anybody. I've been driving down the road as an adult sometimes and being like, Well, what if what if we're wrong? I mean, there's other people that have that believe other things just as passionately as I do. Like what if we're wrong? So I've had those doubts at times, but they don't last very long.

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Unknown

Like God has always been very, very real to me. I think the other thing was I was always a I was always a dreamer, like I loved from the time I was and a reader. I've always read books like adventure books, explorers. I didn't want. Like one of my biggest fears was probably living a boring life. If someone were to say to me when I was growing up, like, you know, it's important that you just grow up to be a good man, That sounded really boring to me.

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Unknown

No, I get that There's a lot of value of being a good man. You get that? I really get that. I truly do. But I was like, Seriously, that's it. There's got to be more. So adventure's always been really big to me. So at eight years old, I would say God was very real to me and I was already passionate about living adventure where they come from, their family, maybe a little bit.

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Unknown

I think I was just wired that way, Maybe a little bit. That's a good question. Especially like God like was God a prevalent topic of discussion within the house? yeah. Well, you know this about me. I grew up in a home that was very religious, and I put that and we went to we were sent to a Christian school.

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Unknown

We went to church, we went to, you know, older people, not this was a want to I always want to you're always memorizing verses. I memorized more verses than anybody. And so it was that was always real to me. But as I started growing older, I found out that one of my parents was living a double life. So what I, what I thought, you know, was what I thought.

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Unknown

Who who? I thought my dad was found out there's a lot of mess. And so I had to deal with all that. But my mom was the real thing for sure. And she, I from the early age, like when we were driving to school, we would do like devotions together. As she was memorizing the book of Hebrews. And then I watched her just go through a lot of ups and downs in life.

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Unknown

And then she was a single parent in high school with two boys. My sister had already left, graduated and left and so and then she she went through a lot of disappointments and discouragement and difficult things, but I just watched her faith carry her through all that. So, yeah, I think some of it with the faith part of it definitely came from watching my mom.

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Unknown

And then I always had great mentors. This is why I'm so passionate about mentors. I came so close a few times in my high school years to just I was walking that line so closely and I came so close to it. And and I look back and I think the one thing that kept me were some some men in my life, mainly coaches, but men in my life mentors.

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Unknown

That's why I'm such a I'm so passionate about mentors. I still have mentors in my life. I'm almost 52. I turn 52 here in a month and a half, and I could still name a couple of people. I'm like, These are still mentors in my life that I look up to. So yeah, I think that's going to be a topic that I want to get into.

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Unknown

Yeah, later on in this discussion too, just because I think we both can agree, especially you being on the receiving end of mentorship, but also being a mentor yourself to other people, you see the importance of that. Yeah, right. And so growing up, especially at that young age, do you think, you know, looking back, you see that there was especially coming from more of a religious home, would you say like a more of a home, whether it was just be religious or submitting to authority of God that there were principles and values that carry through in that.

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Unknown

for sure, through your mom's parenting as well. huge, huge. But then, like anybody, I had to own it eventually at some point. For me, that was my freshman year. That was the year I was actually that was where I was walking the line. I was walking down to it was a it was a party and I was going to go there and I was going to just cut loose like I was going to.

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Unknown

And that was that was the moment where I didn't do it. And I decided, no, you know what? I'm all in with this. I'm all in with this God thing. This isn't my parents, this isn't my mentors, this is my coaches. This is mine. I'm owning this. So I think everybody that grows up in a in a Christian home or religious home, there has to come the point where they own it themselves.

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Unknown

So I came to that. It like I said, I think around my freshman year. Yeah. So yeah, let's lead right into that. So like 14 to 18 year old pet, what was 14, 18 year old pet, especially when you're saying when you were 14, that's when you really owned your own faith. What got you to that point of being like, no, this is this is for me, I think of mine.

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Unknown

Yeah, Yeah. I think a lot of it was I mean, I can go into I went to a great church. The school that I went to was really good, but I think a lot of it was when I look back on my life, it had always been real to me. It always had, like when I was a little boy, a lot of times, little kids.

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Unknown

It's just something that your parents are teaching you. And it was, but it was it was so real to me. So I think that's a lot of it. But, you know, you ask what I was like at eight and then I think of 14 at 18, what I was like, I would say I'm still an adventure. I still I then I wanted to follow God, but I wanted to follow God in the adventure.

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Unknown

But I was also very lonely in those ages. No one would have known that I was the class clown. I was the funny guy. No one knew I was going home. And this is a great reminder. You know, you don't know when you see someone what's really going on. Because I was going home every night and like crying myself to sleep.

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Unknown

So I was extremely lonely in those years. But all in with God and looking for adventure. What was this also like, Like inspired by family or was this like, I don't know. I feel like it tears you, right? yeah. Yeah. Did you have tears in your. No, no, no. I'm saying, I mean, like for the adventure part, especially because I've known you ever since I've known you to, like you just always been looking for the next trip, the next adventure, the next, you know, memories that you could be made.

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Unknown

Was that something that your family, like, always had done? Was that like a family kind of tradition? Just be adventurous. I know, like, probably the time that you grew up to, like Westerns were probably like a big thing as well. And so, like you're saying like, well, there's, you know, be a good guy or have a great story.

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Unknown

Don't have a boring life. And I'm just picturing you watching Westerns like the good guys also, you know, a really cool guy that's, you know. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I think I did figure out I don't I never really consciously thought this, but I did figure out that, you know, you can actually have a lot of adventure and be a good guy at the same time.

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Unknown

yeah. You can do both. You can be a good man, a good husband, a good father, a good friend, good brother, and still have a lot of adventure. So I think I did learn that. Where did I learn that? I don't know for sure. It was certainly some of the stuff I grew up watching. Like Jacques Cousteau was.

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Unknown

You know, this part of my story. I never saw the ocean till I was 28 years old. But I grew up watching Jacques Cousteau. And for all of the younger people, this was a Frenchman that, like, drove the most incredible places all over the world. And I had never even seen the ocean, but I just knew someday, someday.

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Unknown

So when I see the ocean at 28 and you know my story, I ended up getting to becoming a certified diver. And I've kind of dove all over the world now, But that was kind of one piece of that adventure. So where did I get it? I think it was more just watching things. And then I think, you know, are we born with something or are we made you know, I think there's a lot more.

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Unknown

We're born with a personality. Like my personality probably didn't matter what family I was in, I was probably going to be wired to. I was wired. I think it was going to love adventure no matter where I was. I like to say that personality is what you're born with, characters, what you develop. Well, like that. Yeah. Say that again.

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Unknown

Yeah. Personality is what you're born with. Characters, what you develop. Do you know that's good. Yeah. Post that. That's good. Yeah. But yeah, the grayscale, you know, insta picture with that quote. Easy. That's, that's really good. I would totally agree with that. That her personality was kind of it's not going to shift and change a lot in life like who I am now at almost 52 and who I was at 20.

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Unknown

It's really similar personality wise. We'll probably get in some of that will be later character, though, that's not given to you. You develop that and that's good. So 14 to 18. I also know some of your stories too. You were a class clown. how were you at school? I'm the one that made the top two thirds of the class possible.

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Unknown

Yeah, we put it that way. Here's a thing. I basically lived on my own through high school, so my parents get divorced. My mom is a single mom, and she basically was just like, just I just need to know where you are. So three in the morning, I'd call her and tell her where I was fortunate. I was hanging around good people, like I was doing dumb stuff.

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Unknown

But it wasn't. It was dumb stuff because I was a guy with too much testosterone, you know? So dangerous stuff. But but I wasn't getting in trouble with drugs and alcohol. What was your question? School does this time paying attention in school? I slings it. Yeah. I would have definitely, definitely been told I have it was back then.

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Unknown

But ADHD. Here's the funny thing. You know this about me. I've always loved learning. When I was in school, I just didn't like someone telling me what to read. So I'd go home and I'd be reading books sometimes for two in the morning, but it was whatever I wanted to read. So I loved reading history, so I school just bored me.

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Unknown

If it wasn't for sports, I would have I probably would have dropped out because I didn't have it again. I was kind of living on my own. I would have dropped out if it wasn't for sports. I hated school, but I loved learning. Yeah, and that's something that I think we've had plenty of conversations over, especially in today's age.

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Unknown

How easy it is to learn. Yeah, like academics, how important it is doesn't necessarily mean or measure one's ability to actually learn something. Yeah, and I think knowing you ever since I've known, you've always been reading books and there's something that I've heard the name drop I heard Alex from say, is that the the way that you measure one's ability to learn is when you take information and then also then apply it.

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Unknown

Yeah, behavior change is what the real metric is for one's ability to learn and their ability to learn fast. Yeah. And so I think most of the things I think I would go on a stretch here to say is that probably most of the stuff that you've learned in life has been very much more on your own. probably hobbies.

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Unknown

Sure. You know, being the influences around you, the mentors around you, the books that you have read. Well, I've even taken personality profiles. I'm not knocking them. Everybody's got different personalities. But even my personality profiles will say that, like I love to learn to experience. Like that's one reason I think school. Okay, So I was a teacher and a coach.

00;20;54;19 - 00;21;10;22

Unknown

I'm not like ripping on teachers here. I was a teacher and going to high school drop out to a teacher. Yes, They forgot that the same school that I went to that hired me for years later when I came back with no teaching degree and never stood up and taught in a class in my life. And they're like, Hey, why don't you start teaching?

00;21;10;24 - 00;21;35;29

Unknown

But I, I look back and I go, I feel like sometimes in school, teachers go out of their way to take something that's fascinating, make it boring, because history is fascinating. Science is fascinating, literature is fascinating. But most of those classes are incredibly boring. I agree. So that's not okay. Get let me get off my soapbox here. God, no.

00;21;36;01 - 00;21;55;29

Unknown

I'll really back. Going to get in trouble. I hear you. All right, cool. So you were very much more I think we would have been very similar in the sense of high school years for you to kind of summarize a little bit was you enjoyed your time just having fun looking for adventure. You were very bored in the classroom.

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Unknown

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sports is what pretty much kept you together. Yeah, but those years molded me so much because I had some of the most important mentors in my life in those years. Like some of my coaches and some of my teachers were some of our most important mentors and continued to be up through my twenties. So those were valuable years.

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Unknown

Wasn't like a waste. I wasted a lot of those years. I mean, like, again, I, I married, you know, I married the valedictorian and someone who was really smart and like, you know, everything. I don't think she knew what it was in her entire life. And I didn't know what it was either. But from the other direction, Hey, it's not what you know, It's who you know that knows this stuff.

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Unknown

Yes, exactly. Yeah. So I guess before we move on to the next, you know, stage of life is without mentioning the mentors in your life in that 14 to 18 year span of your age, I mean, what was like the number one thing that you took away from a mentor from that age group and really influenced a lot of the decision making that you've done, you know, from there on out also, you know, influence the way that you process things, thought about things, pondered on things, the actions that you took, like if you did not have that mentor or had heard, one of the things that they told you would that have greatly changed the

00;23;12;16 - 00;23;30;06

Unknown

past, you know, moving forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, man. You know, it's really hard to narrow down to one. And I think what I would say is the one thing I took away is the importance of mentors, which sounds kind of a cheap way out of it. But that's why even at 52, I still have them in my life.

00;23;30;08 - 00;23;47;18

Unknown

I mean, it's hard for me to narrow down like, what is the one thing they taught you because there were so many? But I think what I walked away from those years knowing is like I have to have people in my life for me being a man, especially men in my life. But it could be men or women, but usually it's been men in my life.

00;23;47;21 - 00;24;01;25

Unknown

I have to have men in my life. They're going to help me figure out how to make this journey in life. And I need some of my own age. I need some of them that are younger than me because we all learn from each other. But I definitely need some that are older than me that have taken this journey ahead of time.

00;24;01;27 - 00;24;25;28

Unknown

So I have someone in my life now that I met ten years ago or something and he's in the seventies and he and I meet every few months and we sit down. We just talk life together because So to answer your question, the one thing I took away, you better have mentors in your life. I tell our audience right now, if you can't quickly name right now two or three people in your life that are helping you do this journey, you need to get them in your life.

00;24;26;01 - 00;24;42;09

Unknown

I would like to make a claim in this way, too. I think especially, you know, this is how we relate, especially to because, you know, we're men, especially young men. I would say that you'd probably 100% agree with that, because I think men are very capable of doing really good things and also capable of doing really bad things to you.

00;24;42;15 - 00;25;09;26

Unknown

I feel like men are capable of doing great things, capable of doing really bad things, and a lot of stupid stuff in between. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think the importance of having mentors that are older and this is kind of one thing that I think is a really cool thing. The common theme for No Gray Area is the podcast, having people of different walks of life, different stories, different ways that they've gone about things is that we can gain their wisdom through their lessons learned without earning their scars.

00;25;09;29 - 00;25;25;09

Unknown

Yes, And you get a mentor like that, especially that's older, that you see the lessons that they've had. And it's kind of like one of those things like, Mom, dad, don't tell me what to do. Like they're trying to impart some wisdom to you because they're like, I don't want you to see you get hurt or whatever might be, or go to the same pains that I went through.

00;25;25;11 - 00;25;47;16

Unknown

But when you have a mentor that you kind of submit to their and once they like submit to their authority in your life, but submit to you their authority in the sense of like, hey, I'm going to actually listen to you and take to heart what you say, whether I apply it or not. Yeah, right. But is that, you know, going through life just in general is we're going to always have some kind of wound that we're going to have.

00;25;47;16 - 00;26;07;08

Unknown

Right. And when we see people that are older from us, usually we see them in scars. And usually scars mean that there was a lesson learned there. Yeah. Some people you might see they might be scabbing wounds. Sometimes you might see somebody stabbing wounds and they're still picking at it. Sometimes you see somebody maybe having an open wound because it's fairly new, but they're allowing it to heal.

00;26;07;12 - 00;26;31;27

Unknown

Yeah. And some people might have an open wound and it's getting infected. Yeah. And having mentors that I've already walked through that, you know, gone through life and has gained, they are, you know, one of those they could be any of those situations. But to see where you're at and kind of one of the analogies I like to throw out is sometimes like the scenario that you're in is kind of like a forest, and sometimes we're just too close to the trees.

00;26;32;03 - 00;26;49;14

Unknown

Didn't know that. It's actually like the the forests were too close to the the bushes. And sometimes we just need somebody that has a different kind of perspective to pull us out to be like, hey, this is the actual. Yeah, big picture here. They've been to that forest before. Yeah, especially if we respect them. They could tell us, Hey, quit being dumb or.

00;26;49;16 - 00;27;07;01

Unknown

Or they could be more loving. Of course, you know, there's that option, too. But here's Brandon. Here's what I love about mentorship, too. And this mentor that I was mentioning before, it's in the seventies now that I meet with everyone while he does this really well and I think is a is a is a because I mentor some people too now and I've learned from him on this.

00;27;07;03 - 00;27;33;18

Unknown

Mentoring isn't just one way either like you're learning to this guy when we'll meet sometimes he spends a lot of times asking me questions and listening to me and he'll be like, That's really an interesting and he's taking notes. And so I've actually learned from him watching him do that, going, Here's a guy that has achieved an enormous amount in his life and would be would be looked at by most people as this mentor that's on this hilltop.

00;27;33;24 - 00;27;46;03

Unknown

And yet he's still taking notes and he's still learning. And so I think mentorship through mentorship is a two way street. So again, I tell the audience, if you don't know right now, if you can immediately remind God these are two or three people I have in my life that are my mentors, you need to go find them.

00;27;46;09 - 00;28;03;06

Unknown

And when you find those, make sure there are people that are also learning from you. It's mutual. It's a it's a journey that we're taking together. But they've just been through some of those for us. Well, I think it's what makes a the difference between a great teacher and a good teacher is great teachers know how to navigate conversation.

00;28;03;06 - 00;28;20;03

Unknown

They know how to ask better questions. Yeah, right. And they're always learning about the individual that they're there with. And the only way that you can actually teach somebody or mentor them is to legitimately get to know them and ask them questions like, If you have a mentor that talks more than listening, you're probably don't have a mentor.

00;28;20;05 - 00;28;38;08

Unknown

Exactly. Right. Yeah, exactly. There's a there's a curiosity. Yeah, I think a good mentor has a curiosity about life. A curiosity about you. You know, like if I was mentoring you, there's a curious I'm genuinely curious about learning about you and knowing you better. That's what a good mentor is, I think. And then when it's mutual, when it's going both ways, that's where it's a great mentor relationship.

00;28;38;08 - 00;28;57;06

Unknown

Yeah. So there is that curiosity piece for sure and listening, right? Yeah. So it's going to a what was that like when he was 21 to 25? I wasn't lonely anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I've married now, married to the love of my life. And so we got married at 19. So we should back up. Yeah, 19. That's crazy. Start.

00;28;57;06 - 00;29;20;03

Unknown

We meet in sixth grade. We date through high school. We we marry each other 19. And I always you know, you've heard me say this, but I talk about my life. There's B.S. like B.S. an ad in time. I have B.S. before Sharman and after Sharman. So, yeah, I mean, she's a you know, I just it's the single greatest gift that God put in my life, for sure, without a doubt.

00;29;20;05 - 00;29;41;14

Unknown

So 21 to 25 was a totally different I feel like now I'm like doing life with a teammate and I'm learning a lot and I'm starting to feel like that. As we journey through my life. I'm going to peel the layers back here, but I'm starting to feel like I can do. I can do anything, like just give me a chance and I'll figure out anything.

00;29;41;14 - 00;29;54;11

Unknown

I'll take any hill. That's how I'm starting to feel at that age. But there's good and bad about that. Yeah, but at that age is where I'm starting to go. Like, if you just give me a chance. If you just hire me, I'll. I'll. I'll show you. I can do this. That's, that's where I'm kind of at in that age.

00;29;54;12 - 00;30;12;05

Unknown

Yeah. And not only that, but you were, of course, married ages 21 to 25. You're having kids. You got two kids by the time I'm 25 and you have three kids and a third kid comes along a year or two after that. So yeah, I'm a dad. Yep. So I've learned how to do marriage, how to do life, how to be a father.

00;30;12;11 - 00;30;42;02

Unknown

Are you teaching at this time? When I was 23, 23, teaching. So then you started teaching? Yeah. You were coaching. Yeah. Yeah. So? So a great evolution of somebody that we've seen so far, being like a young kid of like, just being adventurous, you know, never being home. Faith always being within, you know, within the household. Going into your high school years of always seeking mentorship, not being the, the best advocate for probably like school.

00;30;42;05 - 00;31;10;07

Unknown

I was definitely not the poster child for a good student. Yeah, I don't think I got student of the month ever. Yeah probably you know partook in a lot of sports enjoyed sports like that's where you you know thrived going into a big commitment at a young age at 19 getting married to then starting a family so trying to like be a good husband, being a good father now also taking the role of a teacher and mentor yourself at the very school that you probably would have dropped out at.

00;31;10;10 - 00;31;29;13

Unknown

Yeah, right. Yeah, Yeah. And then not only that, but, you know, knowing, you know, your story probably arguably being one of the more favorable teachers and coaches at said school as well like that's a lot that happened between the ages of like pretty much from the moment that you graduate high school all the way to Yeah mid twenties.

00;31;29;14 - 00;31;45;27

Unknown

There's another principal that's coming up as you're kind of walking through that and I go on and again for our listeners and there's something about giving people some chances on paper. I was not the guy you should have brought on, but I will. I mean, I'm not I'm trying to say this humbly, but I was a good teacher and I was a good coach.

00;31;46;00 - 00;32;05;01

Unknown

I worked hard at it and I had to figure things out because I didn't go to school for like learned from. I just had to kind of learn as I went. But I look back on that and go on is because someone gave me a chance. And, you know, I think in life sometimes if you go, if you give someone a chance, like there's gonna be people going to disappoint you when you do that.

00;32;05;04 - 00;32;22;19

Unknown

But all of us, at some point, we need someone just give us a chance. And I know anybody who's listening, who's in their twenties, they're probably going, Yeah, no kidding. Because in your twenties you're always like, you're just trying to prove yourself, right? I mean, that's how I described like there's twenties. I felt like in my twenties I was just trying to prove myself, like, give me a chance and I'll prove myself.

00;32;22;21 - 00;32;39;17

Unknown

Thirties, I started figuring out who I was, forties. I figured out who I was, and I don't want to waste any time doing anything I'm not good at anymore. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's a good segue way then. So you just alluded that in your thirties that you started figuring out who you are. So in your twenties is like, Give me a chance, I'll prove it.

00;32;39;17 - 00;32;53;20

Unknown

Yeah. Like I'm going up this year. I'm battling, you know, warrior mentality kind of thing now was just look at, you know, in the span of a decade in his thirties what's Pat in his thirties what is he like And now he's figuring himself out

00;32;53;20 - 00;33;12;00

Unknown

from your No Gray Areas team, we just want to say thank you so much for listening. And if you're loving this episode, would you just take a moment and leave us a review and rating on whatever platform you're listening from? If you're watching on YouTube, make sure you hit that subscribe button so you don't miss out on the new podcast episodes that drop every other Wednesday.

00;33;12;02 - 00;33;24;09

Unknown

By leaving a review and subscribing, you help others discover our podcast Inspirational messages to effectuate positive change in their lives. Okay, let's jump back in to this episode.

00;33;24;09 - 00;33;28;11

Unknown

what's Pat in his thirties what is he like And now he's figuring himself out

00;33;28;11 - 00;33;32;28

Unknown

Yeah man thirties was was one of my favorite decade so far and I love my thirties.

00;33;32;28 - 00;33;50;08

Unknown

I mean, the kids are, they're growing up, they're in elementary, going through junior high and high school. I'm actually given some chances now. I got some opportunities. I'm still like, we can take this hill and I'm really feeling that way. And that's an important part of my story. My twenties. I started feeling that way in my thirties. I'm really feeling that way.

00;33;50;08 - 00;34;06;02

Unknown

I'm like, Yeah, I'll, I can do it. Just give me a chance. I'll take that hill. And I'm really feeling that my thirties and, and again, this is going to sound arrogant to say it right now, but when people hear my whole story, it's not going to sound arrogant and my thirties are proving it. I'm like, Yeah, you give me anything and I'll grow it.

00;34;06;02 - 00;34;23;03

Unknown

I'll make it better. And I was doing it, I was doing it. So I'm going through my thirties, really figuring out how I'm wired, how God put, how God made me, how we, how we put me together, my personality, what I'm good at, what I'm not good at. And I'm and I'm most of it was it was a good decade.

00;34;23;05 - 00;34;37;25

Unknown

Then we get to my forties. I get your first. are they going to the forties. I feel like you want to go to your forties. Well, so I got to say really quick I'm actually I'm 29. I'm very much looking forward to my thirties because you know, I hear you saying your thirties are great and like everybody's dreading 30.

00;34;37;28 - 00;35;00;26

Unknown

like I'm looking for three. But I will say this. I had triple j the other night. Yeah, and correct me if this is any way that my thirties will feel like I'm not excited anymore. You are. You are starting in your thirties. You are starting to see like, like again. I remember in my mid thirties I came home one night after playing basketball because, you know, I've gone from the sport like sports was everything to now I'm just a dad and I.

00;35;00;27 - 00;35;19;04

Unknown

Yeah, yeah. Now I'm just playing in like church league, city league basketball games and we're all slow now and we're throwing elbows. And a lot of these scars on my face are from church league and see that nasty, you know, just yeah, church was worse than St Paul, right? But I remember my mid thirties coming home and I just dropped my shoes on the floor and I told my wife, I'm like, I'm done.

00;35;19;07 - 00;35;42;13

Unknown

I become that guy. I become that guy can't play anymore. I my my mind tells me to move to the right. My body's just too slow. So in your thirties you are starting to see your body breakdown. You're starting to see but but your the other side of it too. So fun in your thirties is you really. You're all the things you've been learning and building on to your teens and twenties and thirties.

00;35;42;18 - 00;36;02;12

Unknown

It's starting to to play out now. And now you're not sitting around the table anymore, sometimes going like, I don't have a clue what they're talking about. Now. You actually are sometimes the one going, Hey, what about you? Have you feel like you have things to offer because it's all coming together? So you're, here you've got a show for our young listeners, right?

00;36;02;14 - 00;36;20;26

Unknown

Twenties, maybe some of them might be in high school. Still looking forward to those kind of things. One would probably what you probably would say is just give time. Time. Yeah, yeah. But don't just time, time. You know, the whole thing. Time heals. That's garbage. Time isn't magical. Time, Time you'll learn with. You're not going to just learn with time.

00;36;21;02 - 00;36;50;05

Unknown

, it's proven, it's taken him: 10000

00;36;50;06 - 00;37;11;21

Unknown

th on that ten. You don't get: 10000

00;37;11;21 - 00;37;34;23

Unknown

Staying active in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like to think about it too. Is there a lot of people look at others that are further ahead of them? And oftentimes we like to think of the people that are like the greats within a certain industry or certain sector of life or whatever it might be. And I think the biggest difference between us and them, these greats, you know, as we could say, is that they just took the time to learn the game.

00;37;34;29 - 00;37;51;02

Unknown

Yeah. And they know the rules of the game. And oftentimes they're just are our way of like, okay, this is the game, quote unquote game of life, right? And we just got to learn the game and how to participate in it because you're either going to play it or you're not. And the matter of fact is life moves on.

00;37;51;05 - 00;38;09;21

Unknown

So you have to learn, you know, the game kind of thing, right? The greats the greats have, they've got the they've got the talent like they've they've got the natural. Like you're not great unless you have the natural piece. Like, I remember when I was in Chicago for school, I'm 20 years old and I go down and there's some semi-pro who's going to play basketball.

00;38;09;21 - 00;38;26;19

Unknown

They shut the whole gym down and it was kind of an invite only, and they invited me down to play. And I was always known to. I was like really quick and everything, but that was the day where I'm going, these guys, this is another level. It was I was embarrassed. I was just flat out embarrassed. I left early and that's where I realized the greats, there's just this natural.

00;38;26;21 - 00;38;43;09

Unknown

they've combined it with the: 10000

00;38;43;10 - 00;38;58;13

Unknown

Yeah, you got to be doing the work first. And now before I move into the forties, what were you doing? Well, yeah. What were you doing in your thirties? So you're like, you stopped teaching ready to transition? Yeah. Yeah. So I left teaching and I was kind of. I was a little bit of an entrepreneur worth it, you know?

00;38;58;13 - 00;39;13;02

Unknown

So I remember I was leaving teaching. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, and I was driving by a field one day and there's a for sale sign in it. And I had dabbled with some contracting, you know, painting and and getting a little bit of framing. And I'm like, I should I should buy that and build houses.

00;39;13;06 - 00;39;29;00

Unknown

Never built houses before, but I'm like, Well, I'll go buy a book at Barnes Noble Building Houses for Dummies, and I'll figure it out. So I did. I, you know, I had to go to like ten different banks because I didn't know how to have the conversation, but I figure it all out. And I built houses for a few years and I really actually hated that.

00;39;29;02 - 00;39;45;10

Unknown

But I learned a lot of good things in it. And I did that for for two years or so. And then we moved to Phenix and I started working with an international relief and development organization. I did that for, I think five or six years, and that grew into an anti-human trafficking movement. And we did a documentary on it.

00;39;45;10 - 00;40;02;21

Unknown

And those were just again, that was a great year because we did some unprecedented things as a team, as a group of people, and it was a group of us were like, Go, and I don't care if they say this is impossible, we're going to do it because nothing at that time there was nobody doing some of the stuff that you guys were doing at that time.

00;40;02;23 - 00;40;18;01

Unknown

, like when we first heard in: 2008

00;40;18;03 - 00;40;36;27

Unknown

k in the U.S. at that time in: 2008

00;40;36;27 - 00;40;56;05

Unknown

It's happening. We're sitting in the studio here, and I guarantee you within a few miles from here right now, there's underage girls that are going to be trafficked tonight, this wealthiest part of the city, the poorest part of the city. So it happens all over. So we ended up making a documentary that became nationally known. We ended up starting a safe house when the first safe houses for underage girls here was just it was it was amazing.

00;40;56;05 - 00;41;19;02

Unknown

What was an amazing and hard. Yeah, it was hard I think where my forties were I ended up in my forties was some of the brokenness I carried from dealing with that. Yeah. One little thing, one little nugget before you get to your forties, this is actually the beginning portion of where our connection. Yes begins. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't meet you til probably like, what, 7 to 9 years after this point.

00;41;19;04 - 00;41;36;06

Unknown

But you have met my sister because she started getting involved and you kind of mentored her into her starting her own nonprofit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was actually yeah, she was doing she was in high school and she's doing this awareness thing and doing an amazing job with it. And she actually talked about like, Hey, let's roll this under the nonprofit that we had started.

00;41;36;10 - 00;41;52;20

Unknown

And thank God now in hindsight, I said, No, don't roll it under it, because that turned into a mess. But I said, Don't roll, don't, don't roll it under it. Just maybe look at having it separate. And she did that. Now she's got her own on. They do an amazing awareness. Give them a little plug. Red light rebellion, really Rebellion.

00;41;52;20 - 00;42;11;18

Unknown

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look it up. Red light rebellion. They do an amazing awareness program for for youth, primarily in Phenix, but they're spreading outside of Phenix. But yeah that was your sister. Yeah. Didn't even know you. And then years later, you end up going on that trip to Mexico. You're my daughter's on it. And then. And she can't keep her eyes off.

00;42;11;18 - 00;42;30;13

Unknown

Yep, she couldn't keep her eyes. And then a few months after that, you met your favorite person in the world. Yeah, She goes to Marine Corps. Marine Corps boot camp? Yeah. Comes out fighting me. Dad, there's this guy that wrote me every day. We're just friends. And I said, No guy writes you every day, you know? Yeah, you know, And yeah, you guys make a great team.

00;42;30;18 - 00;42;49;20

Unknown

Yeah. Okay. Anyway, so I was going to your forties. So what was Pat like in his forties? I know there is a lot of forties were hard, forties were already thirties were hard. I'm glad I'm out of my forties. Yeah. Forties. Hard isn't even the word for it. 40 sucked. If I could be more crass that would be some other words on here.

00;42;49;20 - 00;43;12;15

Unknown

But they were. You know, I went into my forties feeling like again, like week I could do anything, I could do anything. And that's when things just started crashing for me. So, you know, we're taking this nonprofit that that's taken off and getting national exposure and it is just taking off. And the chairman of the board says, Hey, can we meet?

00;43;12;15 - 00;43;31;18

Unknown

And I'm confident we're going to. In fact, I go to the Starbucks across the street from where I was going to meet him, and I'm writing notes and everything and just I mean, we had turned that whole organization around. We're making money like we're bringing in money like crazy. We have exposure. We brought in our first we got license, we brought in our first.

00;43;31;18 - 00;43;49;28

Unknown

I mean, we opened on a Friday and on Sunday, the FBI in Denver, Colorado, we don't even know how they know us. Call us and say, hey, we rescued a girl. We're bringing her down. And so Monday, we get our first survivor that's brought down to us. So, I mean, all this stuff is happening. So I'm thinking that I'm going to go meet with the chairman of the board and he's going to be like, wow, great job, Pat.

00;43;49;28 - 00;44;11;27

Unknown

You're doing amazing. Keep it up. And I get fired. And I'm like, and that that was kind of the first time in my life where, as you know, I've shared this and I've shared this on this podcast before, an internal vow I took. And I always encourage people to really wrestle with what their internal thought was. I believe everybody when they were young, they took an internal vow and they don't even realize it.

00;44;12;00 - 00;44;27;25

Unknown

My internal vow is, I'll prove you wrong. So I had a lot of things going against me growing up, and so I was always like, Give me a chance. You heard me say that twenties and thirties give me a chance to prove you wrong. And I did. And I was very successful at it. This is the first time all sudden where I'm not successful anymore.

00;44;27;25 - 00;44;45;26

Unknown

I did what I thought would have proved, and I thought and I said in there saying, we want someone else. And that that kind of crushed me. And then. And then, then I get another job and I'm in all these years through my thirties, I've been really, really developing my public speaking skills and I'm really in my forties.

00;44;45;26 - 00;45;02;14

Unknown

It starts coming together and I'm doing I'm starting to get on bigger stages, being asked to speak around the country and I'll send them on a stage one time and I have this panic attack and I've never felt that before. I don't even know what's going on. Like there was a guy speaking and he was going to introduce me.

00;45;02;17 - 00;45;15;27

Unknown

I'm standing over there at the bistro table on the side of the stage with another guy, and I hear him going like. And so in a moment, we're going to have Patrick come up and he's going to share with us. I'll send him. Thank you. I can't breathe. I don't know what's going on. I've never felt anything like that.

00;45;15;27 - 00;45;31;01

Unknown

Never, ever. I don't know what's going on. And in fact, I must look so bad because the other guy like leaves only goes York because I must. I was like, pale or something. And then I hear off to the side of here. Okay, so would you please pat to the stage? Everybody claps and I realize I'm not going be able to talk.

00;45;31;01 - 00;45;48;06

Unknown

So I just walk off the front of the stage and I go back to my office and I just start weeping because. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing because this isn't just like I'm not a visiting speaker here. This is actually my job now. These are people that I speak to every weekend. And and I and I'm and I'm I don't know what's going on.

00;45;48;06 - 00;46;03;12

Unknown

And then that launches, you know, this part of the story and some of our listeners do. I mean, for the next 8 to 10 years I battled that every week. Like it wasn't like what was at one point speaking was like I would sit on the edge of the stage, my legs would be bouncing. I'm like, Let me out there.

00;46;03;12 - 00;46;19;26

Unknown

Let me up there. Kind of like when you were an athlete, you're like, Put me in the game coach, too. It's Monday and I know I have to speak on Saturday and I'm I'm having panic attacks just thinking about getting on the stage. But I'm doing it week after week after week after week after week, year after year after year.

00;46;19;29 - 00;46;40;06

Unknown

And it's getting harder and harder and harder. And then, you know, later in my forties, that happens again where all of a sudden I feel like I've turned this organization around and we have it going in a great way and we're taking this hill. And I come back from a trip and I got fired. And so that's I mean, it's just a glimpse for the audience on on the way the forties.

00;46;40;06 - 00;46;57;29

Unknown

I see you kind of sucked because I had up until then I'm like, give me a chance. We'll take this hill. Give me you give me a good team and we'll take this hill. And that has always worked for me. Then I'll said, And I feel like we're taking the hill. But then and then having an internal vow of I'll prove you wrong.

00;46;58;01 - 00;47;23;02

Unknown

That wasn't working for me because I thought I proved them wrong. But then they said, Well, we don't want you. We want someone else. So it was I was having to deal with a lot of really crushing. I was being crushed in my forties and having to deal with things that I had never dealt with. And especially I think that's what's difficult about the scenarios that you were in, is that it wasn't like you were on decline either.

00;47;23;04 - 00;47;48;19

Unknown

Like you're winning. I thought we were like, You got a team player that's helping, you know, put points on the scoreboard, you know, just pull them out. In fact, alone, get rid of them. In fact, Brandon I use that exact thing with that. So the first time that happened with my with my staff team of that nonprofit that we had started combating human trafficking, the board started coming down and getting involved in stuff boards shouldn't get involved in and asking some tough questions.

00;47;48;19 - 00;48;05;26

Unknown

And all of the staff were kind of frustrated and and I told them exactly what you just said. I said, Listen, from my coaching background, I'm telling you, we just win games and it shuts everyone up. So let's just we go get licensed, we get girls coming in here, we start bringing more money in. We win games and little shit and we win games and you still give.

00;48;05;28 - 00;48;24;02

Unknown

And that's just the reality. You look at the world and coaches sometimes get fired that are winning games too, because they don't get along with whatever the case. Yeah, but yeah, it wasn't like things were declining and I'm sitting there going, Well, I can kind of see why they did that. I am still looking back. I'm like, I don't get it.

00;48;24;04 - 00;48;39;05

Unknown

I made it look a little more confusing, which also just very much like whether you want to admit it or not, and it's like it's crushing to the ego, right? It's one thing to accept like I did suck a little bit. Maybe I deserved to get fired. It was like, if you're winning and you're doing well and then you get fired.

00;48;39;05 - 00;48;58;21

Unknown

Like what? Yeah, you know, No way. Makes you feel good about yourself. Yeah. I'm sharing stuff publicly for the first time. I've never shared publicly. I've kind of kept my mouth shut on things for a long time. But the way things went down in both of those, they never really said anything either. They just kind of, you know, all of a sudden all these donors and people and and congregation.

00;48;58;21 - 00;49;13;01

Unknown

And one of them is asking these questions like, what did he do to do? Like he did you go have an affair? Did he embezzle money? Did he go? There's just no one saying anything. So not only was it a blow to my ego, but there's a lot of people that actually don't know the story, never did know the story.

00;49;13;01 - 00;49;32;16

Unknown

And so that was just a bigger blow to my ego, which I think more. Yeah, reputation. I think again, that was I look back now, it's still painful to look back now and I go, God was doing some things to me that he's helping me heal from that internal vow I took that had worked for me really well for a lot of years but wasn't healthy.

00;49;32;19 - 00;49;49;20

Unknown

It's not a good way to live. I'll prove you wrong. I'll prove you wrong. It it'll work for you for a while. And it did for me. But it's not a healthy way to live. Kind of an ugly way to live. You always got a chip on your shoulder. You always try to make people like you. You're always worried about what people are saying and thinking about you.

00;49;49;23 - 00;50;06;26

Unknown

That's a ugly way to live. And I think maybe for me, everybody's got a different journey. For me, maybe the only way I was going to learn to not live that way and I'm still learning that is, you know, we're close enough friends. We talk about this sometimes. I'm still learning. It is. I had to go through some crushing this only way I was going learn it.

00;50;06;28 - 00;50;26;23

Unknown

I'm not saying that God caused it, but I think God allowed it. And in allowing that, he's he was working in the midst of some really brilliant situations. Well, I kind of want to just really quick just skim through some more little details, just kind of give people a little bit more context of just how crazy your forties were.

00;50;26;25 - 00;50;42;28

Unknown

So not especially at the tail end of your forties like so at this time too, you already have you have grandkids yet as well. Yeah. You had a bigger family, families, you know, getting bigger and everything at this time. Like I'm a part of the family. Yeah. Thanks for bringing some of those grandkids to us, by the way.

00;50;42;29 - 00;51;19;04

Unknown

Yeah. Yeah. But the especially that that the at the tail end of your your forties like it's not even like just being able to witness in and be a part of your life in that phase. It wasn't either just like like you guys were growing you implementing a new team's like things, good things were legitimately happening and then to flip the script like this could be like a, like, kind of like maybe a scene in a movie kind of thing just because of how things were going and how the, you know, the rug was pulled out from underneath you like friendships were ruined, reputation was dragged through the mud, like, I don't, you know, like

00;51;19;06 - 00;51;35;21

Unknown

kind of just that. No, you know. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. But, like, you know, reputation was dragged through the mud. A lot of questions. And I think that's the worst thing about, you know. This kind of scenario is when questions don't get answered, then questions are left to anybody's imagination. And people when it's in the worst, a lot of times, Yeah.

00;51;35;21 - 00;51;58;20

Unknown

And then if you don't answer or refute those things, then they somehow or slowly become true to some people at said organization like you were assaulted, like physically and verbally. Like, like this isn't just like small little thing. So like when you're saying like you're going that was pretty messy. Yeah, it was. It was a mess. It was not a fun time.

00;51;58;23 - 00;52;19;27

Unknown

It was the opposite of a fun time. It's not what we want. It's not the kind of adventure that you were probably looking for. So like, you're 40, like you're 30 is going into your forties and like, good things and big things were happening in your forties, but just seemed like every door that could possibly slam in your face, especially at the Times where you feel like, man, this is going to be like more of a burst of, you know, good things to happen.

00;52;20;00 - 00;52;35;26

Unknown

Slammed in your face. Yeah, yeah. And then I finally get again. I've been working my whole life as a public speaker, and I finally get these stages now where it's like, this is this is what you dream of. This is what I dreamed of when I was in my late teens and early twenties and loved speaking and finally have that stage.

00;52;35;26 - 00;52;54;29

Unknown

But I'm battling. No one knows I'm battling this issue, you know, in the background. Really, really, really, really bad. You know? You know, I'm back there in the green room trying to figure out I always had to two intros ready. One intro was if I was going to go out there and feel pretty good. And one intro was if I'm going to feel this, this anxiety really bad.

00;52;55;02 - 00;53;11;17

Unknown

And then I've got every story, every illustration, every closing that I had. I had two scenarios that I always had to have. So that's just constant. That pressure was getting bigger, bigger and bigger and bigger. And then I finally get that stage and then I kind of in a in a in it without giving details, get kind of pushed out of that one too.

00;53;11;17 - 00;53;38;12

Unknown

Then, you know, I wasn't fired. But it's it's was a disappointing ending again. So that's happened three times in a way, disappointing endings again, where I believed you win games and they'll keep you around. And it worked my whole life. And then my forties three times. I see. It doesn't matter how good you do some things. Sometimes just crap happens.

00;53;38;15 - 00;54;03;04

Unknown

Yeah. So yeah, it was. I tell people all the time I. Wouldn't wish my forties on anybody except for the family part. The family part was awesome. And you brought that up. I mean, our kids are now adults. They're marrying, we're getting grandkids. We have, you know how much fun we all have when we get together. And I mean, the family part was amazing, but the worst part was, yeah, was rough.

00;54;03;06 - 00;54;25;15

Unknown

And but but God was using that in my life to to learn. That internal vow I took was a really ugly way to live. Which, by the way, I want to tell the listeners again, I promise you, you have an internal that you took when you were young wrestle with this figure out and it worked for you. Maybe for some of you, you were in a very abusive type home and your internal vow was, No one's going to hurt me anymore.

00;54;25;21 - 00;54;46;05

Unknown

So you put up some walls and they were survival walls and walls that helped you survive. You would not have made it through your year, early years, teenage years toes. But now you have broken relationships because you don't even realize you took that internal vow and you will not be transparent and open with your partner or your friends because you're not going to let anybody hurt you again.

00;54;46;06 - 00;55;01;07

Unknown

So everyone has an internal, though. yeah. But that's how God revealed mine was to like the crap of my forties. And so now you've got this, you know, the scars from the lessons learned go into your fifties. Yeah. So now. Now we're in current events. Yeah. So can I. Can I share one thing, though? That's really funny?

00;55;01;07 - 00;55;17;20

Unknown

This is so ironic. I've never shared this before. I meant to have this book. It's. I left in my backpack over there, but I meant to have this book to show. So what are the ironic things that happened in one of those situations is I had told the board, I said, Hey, let's all read this book together. And in February, when we do this getaway, we're going to actually talk through this book.

00;55;17;20 - 00;55;38;13

Unknown

And the title of the book was I didn't see that coming. So we're all reading this book in December and January, getting ready to lead up to the board meeting in February called. I didn't see that coming. And I come back from a trip and get fired. Yeah, which I'm a sucker while I'm reading the book. I didn't see that coming.

00;55;38;15 - 00;55;53;29

Unknown

And I'm a sucker for irony. I love irony. It brings great joy to my life. Yes. Especially what's not happening to me. Yeah, but like, even just this podcast, for instance, like, no gray area, it's based off the book by Joe Gagliano. Yeah, various. Which was written while he was in prison. Prison? Yes. Great book, by the way.

00;55;54;02 - 00;56;08;23

Unknown

Like, Yes. Where is it? Is it available on like, Amazon? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a great book. Check it out. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, so I'm a sucker for irony. I love it. Like, it's just Stacey's a plug for it. Way to plug. I was. Yeah, I knew I was gonna get in, so in a weird way.

00;56;08;23 - 00;56;26;29

Unknown

Yeah. Yeah. So now you called it out, so. Yeah, go check it out. Yeah, it's no good. Brandon Lopez. You get a percentage, you get a percentage. Let's figure that out. Right. But yeah, we'll figure that out. I guess so. Yeah. You didn't see that coming. So. And I think there's a lot of things, you know, going into your fifties that you didn't see coming either.

00;56;27;06 - 00;56;49;08

Unknown

Yeah, but they've been a lot better. A lot better. Yeah. Yeah. You would say this is so far the beginning of like, a really good decade or decade so far. Yeah, I'm only two years into it, so we'll, you know, and, and I know again, I know I've got eight more years. I know, I know. I want the audience to know for someone who's lived, probably for some of them listening, I've lived longer than they have maybe a decade or two decades long and they have.

00;56;49;11 - 00;57;10;13

Unknown

Life is full of ups and downs. It's a chapter book is what I try to tell everybody. And some of those chapters can be really good, and some of the chapters are going to be really, really painful. But it but you're going to turn the page on me, another chapter, and that's when my life has shown. I had a lot I had some tough chapters in my forties and some good chapters in my forties, but when I turn the chapter in my fifties, it's been adventure.

00;57;10;16 - 00;57;27;05

Unknown

I just it's great so far. Now I'm probably going to have some tough chapters if God gives me another eight years and I live through my fifties, I have some tough chapters in there for sure. Life has taught me that, but so far it's been great. It's been a a big shift for my forties. Nice. Yeah, a very good shift from.

00;57;27;05 - 00;57;45;25

Unknown

Yes, yes, yes. Nice. So because I don't know how we're doing time. So I want to kind of get into another place, a topic of I want to talk to you about, especially now that we've kind of gone through what Pat was like in different stages of his life. So we now can take this in your own experiences.

00;57;45;27 - 00;58;00;25

Unknown

And we could also take this from the experiences that we've learned from your guests. Yeah, throughout the last two years. Now you know very well over two years. So the one thing I think where to plug that good to yeah I love about no gray areas is the premise of it is you know the consequences of the choices or decisions that you make.

00;58;00;26 - 00;58;31;08

Unknown

Yeah right And when you're when you make that the context of conversation, you get a bunch of people of different origins. Yeah. Different life stories, different solutions that they may came up with, whether they be good or bad, you know, all these things. And so one of things I want to do when we when I dive into this topic of discussion, I want to kind of I'm going to be a little languid and I'm going to try to speed up my point here because I would love to hear your take on this, especially now that we've learned more about you, but now also the things that you've learned from context.

00;58;31;08 - 00;58;55;23

Unknown

Yeah, two years of doing no gray areas, listening to all these people. So, I mean, I'm thinking about the difference between choices and decisions. And I think that some people might think that it's, you know, it's they're about the same semantics. I think that there's a huge difference between the two of them. And I think it's so, so different that there's a lot of weight to it as far as the way that we could perceive the way we interact with one another and interact with the world.

00;58;55;23 - 00;59;13;26

Unknown

So, for instance, when we make a choice, the way I see it, Elise, it's like going to McDonald's and saying like, an ice cream cone is like, okay, do you want vanilla chocolate or chocolate? Yeah, It's like, I'll choose vanilla because I'm basically right. I'll take vanilla. But the nice thing with the choice is that the chocolate is always readily available whenever I want to go back.

00;59;13;26 - 00;59;36;08

Unknown

It could be same day, could be next day, next week, but it's not as grave. Like the consequences to a choice is like kind know like right, right. Yeah. Keep going. Or maybe even though I tried something else is like the consequences. That's like. But I could go back and, you know, change things. The fascinating thing about decision, the word decide derives from the Latin word that's a dear, which means to cut off or to kill off.

00;59;36;11 - 01;00;00;07

Unknown

When we look at words like decide C.I.D. Suicide, homicide, genocide, pesticide means to kill something off to overthrow. And so what we see now, when we make a decision or decide to do something, we're presented with options. And what I like to think of is when you choose one option, you're killing off the future version of yourself for not choosing the other.

01;00;00;09 - 01;00;19;12

Unknown

So, for instance, an example of this we see in Hallmark movies about that we need to just like drop the rest of this podcast and just keep this one point, keep this, this one part, because this is really because. Yeah, so there's like just so good with any book that you might have seen, any Hallmark movie producing Christmas movie you've seen, like here's an example of this.

01;00;19;12 - 01;00;32;28

Unknown

They take you back and they take you back. But like for instance, let's say that, you know, we have a scenario where there's a guy that has a dream job, and his dream job is in New York and he's in his hometown, meets a girl, falls in love, but they're not in a point of being like committed to be married or anything.

01;00;32;28 - 01;00;47;21

Unknown

She's not going to move for him. He's not going to move for her kind of thing. Right. But he's still pursuing, like his dream job, like he's doing interviews. He gets a call from his dream job in New York saying, hey, we loved your interview. We like you, want you to come here and work for us. what do I do?

01;00;47;24 - 01;01;12;09

Unknown

I love this girl. Not ready to be committed to a marriage, but here's my dream job. So now we're not we're not left with the choice. We're left with the decision. So this person, hypothetically, is now making a choice. A decision to kill off a future of himself with his dream job or to kill off a future version of himself with potentially dream Girl like this could be his best friend for life, mother of his children, whatever that might be.

01;01;12;11 - 01;01;34;13

Unknown

Yeah. Decision making decision. Now, when we talk about the consequences that we go into, when we make in our lives, especially, you know, we're talking about no gray areas. And we had conversations about this before. I think that the world is very much more gray than we want to admit. Right. And when we think about the future, it depends on what we're talking about.

01;01;34;13 - 01;01;50;11

Unknown

Integrity. I don't think there's when it comes to integrity, there's not a lot of gray. But you've heard me say this before, and I'm borrowing it from a friend of mine, the grayer. I get the grayer life seems So the more of this up here and this here turns gray, the more I see there's there's not things aren't quite as black and white as I thought.

01;01;50;11 - 01;02;05;26

Unknown

I'm not talking about with integrity like moral issues. It's like there is usually, like, black and white, like it's right or wrong. Well, I know it's, but I want to add. But life in general can be it gets it's not as simple yet messy. Yeah. So like, I have an idea of how I would respond to this question.

01;02;05;26 - 01;02;23;24

Unknown

I want to hear what your response to this question is, because I think the distinguish meant that you made is being black and white with your integrity in a gray world is probably a more accurate way of putting it like that, you know? So after like, we looked in your life and now we we've put this in the context of the people that we've interviewed.

01;02;23;26 - 01;02;47;18

Unknown

Again, no gray areas based off of the book, No gray areas following Joe Gargano's decisions and how that's affected his life, we could easily just read that book and see how this carried out, right? Yeah. What are the things? I think that's multifaceted. There's so many variables with this, but do your best. What do you think is the most important factors and influences in somebody's life that filters the way they make decisions?

01;02;47;20 - 01;03;11;09

Unknown

it's easy for me. Really appreciate it. Seriously. let me go. You a harder question. No, no, no, no, no. It's a great question. Yeah, it's a great question, but it's an easy answer. You got to have a playbook. It's I mean, the way we've navigated for all of human history is we get a compass. We figure out where you look at the star, you get the North Star, you got to figure out what's north.

01;03;11;09 - 01;03;27;13

Unknown

You got to have something that's pointing you. You got to have something that's guiding you. If you don't have that, you're lost. If you don't have that, it's everything's just you're just trying to figure things out. So. So how do you deal with decisions and choices? You got to have a playbook. And as a person of faith, I'm gone.

01;03;27;19 - 01;03;44;07

Unknown

That's the beauty of the Bible. It's a playbook for us. He's telling us how to do life well, and then he's giving us many, many, many, many, many, many, many stories. And they're about people who didn't do life well and lessons we can learn from them. And then there's a few in there that did life pretty well. Yeah, most of them do life that most of them do life poorly.

01;03;44;08 - 01;03;57;12

Unknown

I mean, if you read the Bible, if you've ever read the Bible, there's not a lot of great examples in there. Most of them are bad examples. And he's saying like, Hey, learn from them. This is how they did it. They made a bad decision and this is how it turned out and it'll probably turn out for you.

01;03;57;12 - 01;04;17;09

Unknown

So what do you need? The playbook. The playbook, like I often say, and I know a a mentor of mine and I were sitting down recently talking and we said, you know, even if I die and I realize that this whole faith thing that I'm living, it's not true, which I won't know because then I just turn to dust.

01;04;17;09 - 01;04;37;05

Unknown

I just cease to exist, right? There's no eternity. Okay? But I still think that this is the best way to live. The way God told us to live. The North Star, so to speak. It it makes the most sense, you know, like, I don't want to go through life hanging on to bitterness. I want to. I want to forgive.

01;04;37;05 - 01;04;54;00

Unknown

Why? Because it's terrible to hang on to bitterness. It's like drinking poison, hoping that a person dies. I don't want to have hatred. I don't want I want to. I want to have. Lovejoy Peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. You know, I just quoted a passage, which is where he's saying that's how to live. That's a better way to live.

01;04;54;02 - 01;05;10;21

Unknown

Even if we're wrong and I die and I just cease to exist and there is no eternity. Yeah. So you were a fool for a living. A better life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was a fool for living a life in a better way. And so my forties, I, you know, I had disappointments and. And I was wronged at times.

01;05;10;21 - 01;05;29;09

Unknown

I did wrongs at times. I look back on that and I go how to navigate that? The playbook. Sometimes I navigated a well using the playbook, sometimes I didn't. But when I did it well with the playbook, not easy, but better. Yeah, I like that because what you're describing too, is submitting yourself to an authority that's not your own.

01;05;29;16 - 01;05;49;09

Unknown

Yeah, because when we go about life and I find this to be true for most people, and I think this is something that we could all just think about, ponder about, wrestle with is when we go about life thinking that we are we generally like it centered around us, like I, I like myself. I really do like I respect myself.

01;05;49;09 - 01;06;07;07

Unknown

But I also know, like, you branded kind of a dum dum. Sometimes a lot of times he's actually an idiot. The most stuff I've learned after I'm honest. Yeah, if I'm honest, yeah. Like a lot of things I've learned, I had to learn because of, you know, I had to learn those lessons or I gained the wisdom from other people because I'm at least smart enough.

01;06;07;07 - 01;06;20;26

Unknown

Like, this is something that I will brag about myself a little bit. I'm smart enough to not do things that I think will hurt me and listen to the people that done those things and said, you know, that's not a good thing. You've done well with mentors too. But yeah, you pay attention. You've had mentors. That's part of your journey too.

01;06;20;27 - 01;06;40;12

Unknown

Yeah. And I think that when we don't submit ourselves to another authority or submit to ourselves to at least really adhering to what other people like, the wisdom, other things, especially like when you talk about the Bible, like it's probably the only it is the only book in the world that is like chock full of wisdom. Yeah. Whether you want to believe it or not.

01;06;40;12 - 01;07;02;12

Unknown

Like it's a good thing. Just as a wisdom standpoint that when you try to adhere to I guess the current, the playbook of something that's not your own, like it's most likely, most often not going to play out better because when you interact with the world and when you interact with other people, you're usually always doing it for yourself.

01;07;02;15 - 01;07;20;07

Unknown

You know the best self-interest, you know? Yeah. And whether you think you're a good person or not. Yeah, like you're always going to be doing things out of what you think is best for you. Yeah, for sure. Regardless if it's going to hurt them or if it's going to benefit the French philosopher 400 years ago, say every person will do what's in their best interest all of the time.

01;07;20;10 - 01;07;35;12

Unknown

and I've tried to fight against that. I mean, again, for the listeners, right? What I just said down and go wrestle with it. And as much as you want to try to to say, well, that's not true you'll find out is true every person does what is in his best or her best interest all of the time.

01;07;35;15 - 01;07;52;16

Unknown

So if I choose to be sacrificial in my giving, I'm doing that because I think it's going to benefit me, right? Selfish. It's just. It's just truth. However, assuming. So what you're saying is, if we write our own playbooks and it's not going to be a good playbook, and that's why I say that's an easy answer for me.

01;07;52;21 - 01;08;06;10

Unknown

If you're lost throughout human history, I don't get to just go out there and go, I think I'm going to say that way's north. No, I got I got to get out of Compass and I got to figure out which way's north or I got to look and find a North Star, because if I just pick which way's north, I'm going to continue to be lost.

01;08;06;10 - 01;08;25;03

Unknown

There's only one north. Yeah. So, yeah, that's better. Find you better have the playbook, and you better keep studying the playbook. Yeah, I think that's a big one, too. I like to raise this to you on your thoughts. Is that coming on to this? You know, interview you? I've been thinking about what are the like? I ask myself, like, what do you think?

01;08;25;05 - 01;08;49;05

Unknown

Brandon is one of the common themes of people's decision making. And I think the playbook is actually a phenomenal like that's a phenomenal point. I really like that someone steal that and I won't quote you about it. I mean, claim it as my own thing. I'm playing. But I think that like one of the reasons why I wanted to ask you about your life in the way that I did was so we could hopefully paint and illustrate the kind of character that you are.

01;08;49;06 - 01;09;06;21

Unknown

You know, personality, your character, and what kind of values and principles that you had throughout your life, how they may have changed, what influenced them. And I think that for most people, I think what really influences a lot of our decision making is based upon our values and our principles, because it's what filters what we're going to do.

01;09;06;21 - 01;09;25;10

Unknown

So like if I have values and principles and for like, let's say like there's a gray area here and I that's my values and principles. Call me not to do that. It is in my name. It is in my family tradition, it is in my beliefs, whether it be by like God, like is in not dancing, that I do not want to go in that line.

01;09;25;12 - 01;09;46;07

Unknown

Like it's my values and principles that I'm filtering out the like what I'm going to do within the options that I have that life and the consequences. And I think the biggest thing actually with decision making, which is very neat, actually, is I think that there's there's a line that everybody is going to dance on or cross or try to stay away from.

01;09;46;10 - 01;10;08;20

Unknown

And I think the problem with decision making, if you're going cut off a future version of yourself, that means it's going to be that much more easier to make decisions that support whatever future you do. Decide to pursue. So if you want to be a good father or a good husband and you decide to play in a gray area like, I'm going to start flirting with other, you know, other people, that's not my spouse.

01;10;08;27 - 01;10;30;26

Unknown

I'm going to start going, you know, being secretive into making a decision. You're making decisions, but in you're killing off the future version of yourself slowly and like slowly but surely, but to the point where that line just keeps getting closer and closer and closer and your threshold of tolerance for what you're willing to do is going only reflect the kind of future that you're wanting to pursue.

01;10;30;26 - 01;10;51;05

Unknown

Yeah, So if you want and like one of the best things that I like and you know, what goes along with this really quickly is one of that one of the taglines that we often use here. No greater areas. We say your choices you make your choices and your choices make you. But based on what you're differentiating between choices and decisions, maybe a better way to say that is you make your decisions and your decisions make you because a decision is actually making you.

01;10;51;11 - 01;11;22;25

Unknown

It's your kid. When you make a decision, it's killing off what you could be. Yeah. Yeah. absolutely. And well said. Yeah. And I think that when you when you do that, like, you're only like one thing that I've been doing and one of the frameworks I've been thinking through is what is the and this is a maybe a good way for us to really conclude this conversation is one thing that I've been doing a lot lately is I think often than not when we think of the future version of ourselves, we think about the things like Where do I want to be in life?

01;11;22;28 - 01;11;51;11

Unknown

Like, do I want this house? The car business is success, the family, the kind of status like when we think of like, what does future past or future brand look like? We usually associate with these things. Rather, we never ask ourselves like, what is future Brandon? Who is he going to be like? And when I think about that, I put this framework and I think of like, okay, there's a kind of person of character and value and principle that I want to pursue and be like, that's I have an image of future.

01;11;51;11 - 01;12;08;22

Unknown

Brandon Now I want to reverse engineer everything from there and ask myself, All right, if I make this decision, is that going to get me closer to this future version of me that I want? And if it's not, that means I'm going to slowly kill off that future version of me. Yeah. So if I want to be a good husband and a good father, right?

01;12;08;22 - 01;12;22;12

Unknown

Let's say I want to be a good husband, then I'm going to make the decision like I'm not. I'm not messing with this stuff over here, and I'm not even playing with that like at all. Because if I tolerate this at all, you're not going to be that future version. I'm not going to be this future version. Yeah.

01;12;22;15 - 01;12;41;18

Unknown

And that could be business, that could be relationships, that could be anything. So it's a perfect way to wrap this up, Brandon, because I do think I go back again and it's what I really despise about our society and especially our education system is we spend so much time with young people telling help, helping them and asking them, what do you want to be?

01;12;41;18 - 01;12;59;03

Unknown

What do you want to be? What do you want to be? When the better question be? Who do you want to be? It's not. What do you want to be? It's who do you want to be? And really, the reality is you have no idea where you'll be or what you'll be two years from now. I can. My life has shown me that you may think you have a plan and you're like, This is where I'm going to be or what I'm going to be doing two years from now.

01;12;59;07 - 01;13;20;07

Unknown

You have no idea. But you can be making decisions today on who you'll be just despite what you'll be doing. Yeah, or where you'll be. But you can be making decisions today on what kind of person you'll be and add some more weight to that. For our listeners, you only get one name in this world, which means you only get really one reputation.

01;13;20;10 - 01;13;44;00

Unknown

Yeah. And that is your biggest asset. Yeah. And you can change your reputation over time, but that's going to be a very grueling and hard thing to do. Especially if you made mistakes. Yeah. Or you had accidents or you purposely did things that you shouldn't have done. Yeah, you know, but you only get one name. So it's best that you like, especially for like young listeners, you know, like people my age, like we only have one name in this world.

01;13;44;03 - 01;14;00;29

Unknown

That's all we take with us. Like we. You can lose everything. Like, I could lose everything. I could lose my family. I can lose business, I could lose everything. But I'm still left with my name. Now, what does that mean to me? What does that mean to the way that I interact with other people and the way they interact with the world?

01;14;01;02 - 01;14;20;23

Unknown

think about, you know, you're: 5252

01;14;20;25 - 01;14;37;04

Unknown

Let's say 80. Let's say there's 80 year old pet. I want you to picture an 80 year old pet now. Now there's a version of you, a future version of pet that you can imagine, a picture of who you want to be like that you aspire to be like, that's your dream version of you. That's 80 years pet.

01;14;37;06 - 01;14;55;12

Unknown

What would 80 year old Pet Talk current pet now? I think because this is what I mean. I write it down. You know, I take tons of notes in these books I carry around. And in my last two years, I've been writing this to myself over and over again. I'm reading it's a book in the Bible written by the wisest man in the world.

01;14;55;12 - 01;15;13;18

Unknown

I'm reading it over and over and over and over again. Most people think it's a depressing book. It's not. When you really dig down and you see the few highlights of what he's really trying to get across. But this is what I keep messaging myself, and I think my my little wrinkled prune 80 year old pat with slumped shoulders sitting in this chair would be looking great by then.

01;15;13;18 - 01;15;38;27

Unknown

Yeah, yeah, whatever. Yeah. That 80 year old Pat would come back and say, Enjoy the journey. I spent so much life just trying to take the mountains and get the winds. And again, that's part of what I think the forties taught me. But enjoy the journey. Like even the mundane things in life. Like if you're just always going for the the vacation for four weeks out or that which is kind of how I'm wired, I'm wired to go for that when you miss so much of life.

01;15;38;29 - 01;15;59;20

Unknown

So I think, I don't know, I'm not there yet, but I think that 80 year old Pat would say, Enjoy the journey. You didn't always do that well earlier. But if you're going to get another 30 years, enjoy the journey. Love it. Nice. Yeah. Appreciate it. Now we're in the segment of the podcast where we go to, you know, the tradition, what you usually ask this.

01;15;59;26 - 01;16;19;08

Unknown

I get the pleasure of asking this and I encourage you to lie to me. Yes. And the audience try to fool us. So you got to try to do Truth in the Lie. All right, here we go. This was tough because you know me pretty well. It can be hard to stop stump. You say so. And I and I wrote these down because I want you to look.

01;16;19;08 - 01;16;39;02

Unknown

No, no, no. I'll give it away. I'll give it away. So, number one, growing up, my dad stitched up my wounds himself. Number two years ago, I took my 12 old daughter to Uganda with me and we needed a UN escort to go into the northern region. Number three, My nose has been broken three times. Well, I feel like your dad would do that.

01;16;39;04 - 01;16;52;23

Unknown

I'm not going to say that's a truth or a lie yet, but I feel like that would be up your dad's alley. I don't think he was fond of, you know, taking you in anywhere you're a homeless kid anyway, so why would he take you to the hospital? Right. So I wasn't homeless till I was high school. Yeah.

01;16;52;23 - 01;17;13;21

Unknown

Yeah, well, you acted homeless. Yeah. yeah, Yeah. Running around. Okay. See here, 12 years ago. What, you took your daughter? No, I had when she was 12. 12. Okay, that's true. The year might be wrong if you're trying to do a sly Uganda. Yes, I think that's true. I must say that's the truth. No, it's not. Know what?

01;17;13;23 - 01;17;31;03

Unknown

No. So we did this on purpose because you telling me you hate when people do to choose in life. So you did it. So I did. I did it to bug. You know, my dad did stitch up my wounds. He got tired of taking me to the hospital, to me out. And so he just started. It sounds worse than you just started putting tape like you'd shave the back of my head.

01;17;31;03 - 01;17;46;01

Unknown

I got all kinds of scars back. My. He just shaved the whole back of my head and put two pieces of tape. And so the tape together. Yeah. Cause he's like, I'm tired of peeing. I got stitches sometimes. My nose has been broken three times. The first time from two of my best friends who got in a fight over the front seat of the car.

01;17;46;01 - 01;18;03;05

Unknown

And I tried to break it up a second time from a church league basketball game and the third time for my 14 year old son in the pool. There you go. See, I chose not to say that I didn't want to offend you, your daughter, us. We did go to Uganda. We did need a UN escort. But I would never take a 12 year old in such a dangerous situation.

01;18;03;05 - 01;18;24;17

Unknown

She was 13 and yeah, a little older. A little wiser. Yes. Fend for herself. Ready to fend for herself. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So we did. At 13 years old. Yeah. Yeah, I did exactly what you said you hated about two trees in the library. Someone just will not lie. So I got it. I got you. I'm a little upset that you would do that to me.

01;18;24;23 - 01;18;47;21

Unknown

That's. Well, thanks, Brandon. I appreciate that. Yeah, actually, I. It's okay. Yeah, you know. Yes. Yeah, Yeah. I'm the host. Yes, I say thank you. Thank you, Pat, for being on this episode of No Gray Areas. It was my absolute pleasure to interview you. I hope the audience really enjoy getting to know you more. And of course, you guys get stuck with Pat because he's going to be here always back in this seat.

01;18;47;23 - 01;18;51;23

Unknown

So stay tuned for the next episode. It's going to be good. Thanks for.

01;18;51;26 - 01;19;09;08

Unknown

you guys now probably figure it out. I'm not actually Pat McCall. I am Brandon, his son in law. I had a great time interviewing him. Your host of No Gray Areas. I hope that we all took something away from learning from his life and learning how decisions can greatly impact the way that we interact with another and interact with the world.

01;19;09;11 - 01;19;17;10

Unknown

If you need some more information on No Gray Areas podcast, you can go to info at no gray areas dot com. Catch you later. Love you. Have a great week.