What Global Christian Persecution Teaches Us About True Faith | Ep. 128 with Ryan Brown

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Host

In this episode of the No Gray Areas podcast, I sit down with pastor, leader, writer and disciple maker Ryan Brown. We're diving into a topic that's often overlooked in the Western Church, the reality of Christian persecution around the world, and what it truly means to follow Christ when we live in an upside down kingdom. This conversation acts as a reminder that faith isn't just something we believe, it's something we live out even when it costs us.

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Host

Here we go.

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Pat McCalla

Ryan Brown, welcome to the No Gray Areas podcast. I want to start with a question. We're going to just jump into the deep end of the pool here.

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Pat McCalla

you work.

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Pat McCalla

And we're going to get into this more in a little bit. But you work for an organization that works with the persecuted church

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

So you've met believers,

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Ryan Brown

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Pat McCalla

probably sat down and talk face to face with believers who face prison, torture, maybe even death

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

choosing to follow Jesus.

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Pat McCalla

So

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Pat McCalla

in.

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Pat McCalla

A world that that.

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Pat McCalla

Most of us, most of the audience listening me included my decision today is going to be what I'm going to have for lunch.

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Pat McCalla

Trying to avoid eating too much chips and

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Ryan Brown

salsa.

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Pat McCalla

that those are my decisions

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

What do these people or how do these people make this choice? Life or death? Choice on following Jesus.

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Ryan Brown

How do they make that decision? Yeah. That's that decision is not necessarily one that's always made in the moment, but that decision is a byproduct of decisions that were made up to that point in time. As people have, you know, invested their life. They seen Christ at work. You know, most of these folks that I've met have seen a radical transformation in their own heart, their own mind, their own life.

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Ryan Brown

And

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Ryan Brown

can't walk away from that. They can't deny that. They can't reject that. And so this is that,

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Ryan Brown

that's next logical decision that springs forward from those previous decisions.

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Pat McCalla

Well, I hear you saying it's almost like they've they've seen a transformation themselves or other people. Especially in the parts of the world that this is happening where it's almost more real for them than what they can see, touch, taste here. Right.

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Pat McCalla

it's so real to them. And they've been making decisions up to

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Ryan Brown

that.

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Ryan Brown

They have. I think the other thing too is that, you know, in those moments

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Ryan Brown

there, God the Christ, he's not absent from them. He's there and he's present. Yeah. There was a gentleman that I met. This was October, this last year. He was a Sudanese, believer. He'd grown up in a muslim family, had accepted Christ and so forth.

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Ryan Brown

That idea, this of those that have, you know, Muslim background believer. There's a special kind of persecution that that comes their way, that because it's seen as not just a a choice of, of a different belief structure, faith, but a rejection of a cultural identity, a familial heritage and all of these types of things.

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Pat McCalla

their family,

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Ryan Brown

It's

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Pat McCalla

turn their

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Ryan Brown

Everything. Yeah. And so

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Pat McCalla

they're turning their back because to your point, it for them, it's like they turn their back on

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Pat McCalla

on them.

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Ryan Brown

Exactly.

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Pat McCalla

seeing

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Ryan Brown

Exactly.

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Ryan Brown

they've gone astray. They've rejected their family. They rejected everything that they've they've known. And you know it's a great offense. The gospel says that. You know, it is that the cross is an offense. You know, to those that follow and you know, we see that that played out. But you know, this particular individual, you know, as he was thrown into prison, because he was looking to evangelize his neighbors and friends and those types of things.

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Ryan Brown

And

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Ryan Brown

it was, I mean, no, no electricity. It was it was a dark, dark, figuratively and literal type of experience for him. But, you know, he said that, you know, he wouldn't trade it. He said that, you know, in terms of his faith. He said, you know, I went into prison as a kitten. I came out as a lion, he said, because when I was in prison, he said that, you know, though the cell was dark, he said, the light of Christ was burning brighter for me.

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Ryan Brown

He said, when I was in prison, I was recognizing my poverty of spirit in a way that I could better experience the richness of Christ. And he said,

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Ryan Brown

retrospect, like I, I it wasn't good. I didn't like the experience, but I am thankful for it. There was a good that came from it. And, you know, Christ has utilized that.

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Ryan Brown

So, you know, for him is he's making that decision. You know, it's not the crisis is foreign, distant, you know, concept or, you know, you know, just a thought. Christ was present with him there. Christ was there. And so, you know, it wasn't denying, you know, something distant. It would have been denied, you know, Savior this, that he could feel standing right next to him.

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Pat McCalla

You know, it reminds me of, I read Richard von Braun's book, tortured

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Ryan Brown

Yeah. Okay.

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Pat McCalla

pastor went to prison. I think it was in the 40s or 50s or somebody spent 14 years in a prison camp. At seven years, he was released for a short time. And they told him, if you if you if you stop talking about Jesus, we'll leave you alone.

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Pat McCalla

But if you talk about Jesus, you're coming back

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Ryan Brown

Yep.

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Pat McCalla

So he goes home to his wife and son. His son who he hadn't seen for seven years. But he tells him, he goes, I won't be here long.

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Pat McCalla

But then he said, and this reminds me of what you just said about that Sudanese, gentleman. He said to him, he goes, I you need to understand, I didn't come out of the dungeon.

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Pat McCalla

I came out of a mountain top of joy,

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Ryan Brown

in a

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Pat McCalla

solitary confinement. So it's a little bit what you're talking about, where it's like it's just hard for, for me at least, to imagine someone that goes in such a dark, terrible thing. But they have this experience with Jesus that makes him say, like,

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Pat McCalla

there was a light, like you're

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Ryan Brown

I mean, Jesus himself. Sermon on the Mount said, blessed are those who are persecuted. And for a lot of us, I don't know that we fully believe that because, you know, we see persecution as this, you know, something to be feared. Something to try to avoid at all costs. And it's not that we should welcome it or try to to invite it, but

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Ryan Brown

it's there, we have to recognize that Christ is blessed.

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Ryan Brown

And I think that's because Christ has no intention of leaving us alone in that moment.

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Pat McCalla

Paul even wrote about,

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Pat McCalla

the glory of suffering

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Ryan Brown

Yeah. With

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Pat McCalla

like, Christ.

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

And I'm. I'm just going to say what you just said.

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Ryan Brown

it

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Pat McCalla

out. I think for most of us that have grown up in the West, because we have faced very little persecution or dealt with very we all have suffered

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Ryan Brown

Sure.

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Ryan Brown

Not

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Pat McCalla

necessarily persecution because we're followers of Jesus.

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Pat McCalla

It's hard for us to wrap our minds around that a little bit. It's

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Pat McCalla

more

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Ryan Brown

It is

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Pat McCalla

idea

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Ryan Brown

Well.

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Ryan Brown

I think we have a habit of tying our idea of joy to our circumstances. And, you know, Paul

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Ryan Brown

talks about, you know, he's writing Philippians from a jail cell, you know, and he says, count it all joy, you know, and

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Ryan Brown

that that's not joy, that's conditional upon your circumstances. I can't imagine that those, you know,

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Ryan Brown

those jails where it were a pleasing experience.

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Ryan Brown

It was, you know, no, no television, no, no padded beds. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. It was harsh conditions, but, you know, count it all, joy.

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Pat McCalla

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

Ryan, how is it since you've been you've been working with Open Doors, which

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Ryan Brown

is organization

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Pat McCalla

you're working with, and we'll get into that a little bit

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

But, you've been working with them for about a year,

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Ryan Brown

A couple of years. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Time flies.

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Ryan Brown

I haven't done for weeks. Yeah,

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Pat McCalla

other for 20 years

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Ryan Brown

All right.

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Pat McCalla

Worked together for five years.

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Pat McCalla

I think I was there for five years. You were at the place that we worked together for 17

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Ryan Brown

years. Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

So you've been had open doors for four years.

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Pat McCalla

how has reading these stories, hearing these stories, meeting these people face to face from around the world, like the Sudanese gentleman that you just talked about?

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Pat McCalla

How has that impacted your own personal faith?

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Ryan Brown

Tremendously. In a matter of fact, that's one of the reasons I was pulled to this. This role is, you know, was looking at different opportunities and there were a few different things that were really, really intriguing and exciting. But I remember sitting down with my wife one day and, you know, we're looking at it. I had had some familiarity with, you know, the idea of the persecuted church, and it didn't have a ton of familiarity with open doors.

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Ryan Brown

You know, even in the context that we work, there were certain countries that we, you know, called religiously sensitive that, you know, we needed to be mindful of how the gospel was, was talked about in those context. But I hadn't really deeply engaged with the persecuted church. And as I began to dive into that, and, you know, you start to when you start to look at Scripture through these lenses, I mean, you know, you though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you know, when that's shadow is a literal shadow, and not just this,

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Ryan Brown

figurative type of shadow.

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Ryan Brown

When you start to look at scriptures like we talked about in Paul and recognize,

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Ryan Brown

you know, how much of that birth of the church and how much of the New Testament itself was written by those that were experiencing persecution, was written about persecution, was written to those that were persecuted. And that becomes a lens that you start to to look at these things through.

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Ryan Brown

You start to contextualize them in whole different ways. And I recognize that, you know,

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Ryan Brown

the persecuted church honestly had so much more to offer me than what I had to offer it. And that's a testament to the way that Christ has designed his church that, you know, as we are all called to the

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Ryan Brown

table to together, you know, a metaphorical table that,

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Ryan Brown

we're all given something to offer for the kingdom.

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Ryan Brown

And, you know, our brothers and sisters that are enduring persecution have something of tremendous value to teach us. I don't think that any of us would argue that we are increasingly living in a post-Christian culture, and that is such new territory for us. And, you know, for so many years, so many of us so closely aligned our faith experience with the cultural experience that at times they were indistinguishable.

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Ryan Brown

And because of that, so many have us, you know, rather than in making disciples of our culture, we've been discipled by our culture. You know, we as we engage with the church right there. Well, it's true, it becomes, you know, most of us engage

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Ryan Brown

church, engage even the truth of Scripture as consumers rather than his disciples. And yet we've got men and women around the globe who have gone before us in this and have at great cost, given us and modeled for us examples of what it means to use your faith to determine how you will engage with your culture, rather than use your culture to determine how you will engage with your faith.

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Ryan Brown

And so that was something that I was excited to be a student

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Ryan Brown

you know, excited of. What I could learn is, you know, sit at the feet of our brothers and sisters that have gone before us in this.

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Pat McCalla

I remember again. Because I'm going to start referencing Brother Andrew's book

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Ryan Brown

here.

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Ryan Brown

Okay. Which

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Pat McCalla

is basically.

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Pat McCalla

The founder of

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Ryan Brown

it is.

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

But I keep coming back to Richard Worm Braun's

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Ryan Brown

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Pat McCalla

Because

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Pat McCalla

he was like Brother Andrew.

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Ryan Brown

Right contemporaries. Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

But I read his book probably.

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Pat McCalla

Ten times,

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Ryan Brown

Okay.

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Pat McCalla

for Christ. So I'll reference it often. But I remember him talking. He was in a prison, that prison again for 14 years. He was in prison camp. And someone asked him about, compromising Christian. And he goes, I've never met one.

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Pat McCalla

But it was because of where he

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

I mean, he was in that was in Romania during the communist regime.

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Pat McCalla

Compromising Christian would make no sense in that, because you.

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Pat McCalla

Were every day.

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Pat McCalla

That you were choosing to be a disciple or a follower of Jesus, you were.

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Pat McCalla

Putting your life on the line.

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Ryan Brown

Yeah. So

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Pat McCalla

he goes, you don't you don't compromise in the sense like we think

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Ryan Brown

that, right?

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Pat McCalla

just yeah, I show up at.

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Pat McCalla

Church every once in a while, and I read my Bible every once in a while, and I kind of apply some Christian principles here and there, but that's about the extent of it. He was like everybody I've met that calls Jesus their Lord. They're all in.

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Pat McCalla

But but it had to do with where he was at.

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Ryan Brown

Yeah, I think

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Pat McCalla

that kind of speaks to what you're saying. When we get around this metaphorical table, as you say,

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Pat McCalla

and there's this persecuted brother sister, they have something to teach us that we can't learn from anyone

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Ryan Brown

Absolutely no. And it's a beautiful thing. That's the way that Christ is designed, his church. I have you heard from from individuals that, you know, we will often look at their circumstances and say, you know, I don't know how or if I could stand for Christ, you know,

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Ryan Brown

that type of a situation. I've

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Ryan Brown

had them sit on, you know, cross that table and say, I don't know how you and the US can stand for Christ.

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Ryan Brown

You don't need anything. You don't,

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Ryan Brown

you've got everything you could ever possibly want.

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Ryan Brown

I don't know how you stand for Christ in that type of an environment.

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Ryan Brown

So

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Pat McCalla

they're sometimes looking at us going.

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Pat McCalla

Like.

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Pat McCalla

They're almost saying, like we almost have a gift because we, we don't have. I mean, if we're calling Jesus, Lord, we got to be all in

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

you in the West have such a difficult time because you can call him Lord, but he's really not Lord, and it's not affecting you,

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Ryan Brown

Right? Yeah. I've become convinced that the enemy is he waging war on the church. He's got two primary tactics. One is that idea of, you know, the the persecution that we often think about. You know, that where he tries to break the back of the church with fear or intimidation or those types of things. But I think the other strategy is comfort, that, you know, as we become so comfortable, so complacent, you see this as you know, the letters are being written to the church in revelation that you know, there are churches that are called out because of their comfort, that they've seen no need for God, that, or they've taken God on

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Ryan Brown

their terms rather than his.

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Pat McCalla

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

You mentioned consumers versus disciples, and I think that's such an important one. Can you unpack that a little bit

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Pat McCalla

for me and our

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Ryan Brown

Yeah. So, you know, this, this idea of consumerism is that, you know, there's or Burger King commercial, you know, you have it your way, you know, you you get what you want. The consumer is always right. You know, that's these are, you know, cliches and adages that we talk about and, you know, have shaped the way that we think that, you know, when we go into a place of business, you know, we expect to be served, we expect to have a value added to us.

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Ryan Brown

But yet that's not the way of the kingdom. You know, the way of the kingdom is a disciple that takes up his cross and daily follows that, you know, is called to step forward in faith with nothing other than a promise that God says that he's working all of these things together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose,

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Ryan Brown

and love him even when you have no evidence that that's true, other than the words of what God has said, to step forward with that courage in that faith and that that hope that that those words are true.

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Ryan Brown

that's been a disciple. And,

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Ryan Brown

so often we can have I heard a pastor say that, you know, so often as we approach church, you know, we're looking for it may have been you, I don't know, I think it was. Yeah, it may have been. You said, you know,

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Ryan Brown

so often when we engage with with church, you know, we're looking for God to make our life 10% better, 10% better that, you know, we're looking for that that value add we're looking for, you know, how he, you know, takes our already really good life and just improves upon it.

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Ryan Brown

that's not what the story calls us to. It's it's that the life of a Christian. Nowhere is it promise that it's upward and to the right. And, you know, that's that's the pathway of a consumer that it's always getting better. Disciple is not necessarily guaranteed that.

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Pat McCalla

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

in fact, Ryan, the promise of Scripture is usually the other.

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Ryan Brown

yeah.

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Pat McCalla

he's saying, it's not if you're going to face difficult times and suffering and that's that's just part of being a human.

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Ryan Brown

Absolutely.

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Pat McCalla

But I think when you add it's not just that we live in a broken world with Jesus saying, saying, if you call yourself mine, you will suffer for that.

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

So it's not.

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Pat McCalla

he's never really said it's going to be up into the right. Like you said,

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

his promise to us is

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Pat McCalla

You're going to suffer. And of course, depending on where.

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Pat McCalla

We live in the world, that may look a little different.

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Ryan Brown

Absolutely.

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Pat McCalla

consumerism and comfort go hand in hand, don't they? Like that's that's the that's the core value of consumerism is comfort,

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Ryan Brown

They do.

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Pat McCalla

I want it my way.

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Ryan Brown

Yeah. Well and I've,

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Ryan Brown

even looked at okay. Well what does that look like in my prayer life. You know, how much of my how many of my prayers are orchestrated or oriented around this idea of my own comfort? You know, the freedom and the lack of pain and those types of things that, you know, blessed me with this, blessed me with that, you know,

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Ryan Brown

take away this sickness that you know, God may be intending to use for a great eternal purpose and, and glory.

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Ryan Brown

But yet, you know, wanting to pray that away rather than come in, in my prayer life and saying, God, what do you want me to learn in this moment? What? God, what what are you trying to show me here? How is this to shape me?

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Pat McCalla

that is a major perspective change on how we pray right there. So, Ryan, if comfort and consumerism go together,

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Pat McCalla

what word would you use to go with discipleship? And it's got to be a D word because

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Ryan Brown

That's the pastor talking. Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

No. But

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Pat McCalla

what word. It doesn't start with the G. But what word do you.

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Pat McCalla

Think goes with that. And and again for some of our listeners, because we're using word disciple here and, and some of them maybe are new to the church or they're not in the church world. And that's a churchy

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Ryan Brown

word.

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

It just it simply means it's a follower, right? It's a it's a follower of Jesus. It's a

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Pat McCalla

you're a student,

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Ryan Brown

Right? Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

It's giving everything. Giving up everything for him. That's kind of what it means.

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Ryan Brown

What

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Pat McCalla

if consumerism and comfort go together? What goes with discipleship?

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Ryan Brown

Yeah,

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Ryan Brown

I'm going to say the word hope and not the wishy washy hope that. Okay. Yeah, I hope this comes about. You have no I hope I walk out the door and somebody, you know, hands me a new keys to a new fancy car or something like that. Not not those, those,

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Ryan Brown

hope without a foundation, but but but a hope that, you know, is rooted in a faith and a belief

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Ryan Brown

that what God said is true, that the promises that God has made, the things that he has called us to, that they're worth it.

:: 17:38:08

Ryan Brown

Yeah,

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Pat McCalla

You know, when you were describing that, Ryan, I remembered a story I read about how they don't remember where they were in the world. But it was a young girl. She was in it, maybe 12 or 13. Persecuted

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Pat McCalla

And they were threatening her parents, saying, we're going to take her life if you don't deny Christ. And she looked at her parents and said, don't you dare deny Christ.

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Pat McCalla

I will lose respect for you. I know where I'm going. If they and they killed her.

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Ryan Brown

Yeah,

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Pat McCalla

But that was a 12 year old girl. Where you're taught where you say hope.

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Ryan Brown

Yeah.

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Pat McCalla

She based her entire hope in that situation. On the fact that Jesus would raise her from the dead and she would live eternity with

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Ryan Brown

I have heard, you know, ten year olds articulate a faith that I think most of us would aspire to, that, you know, have said that,

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Ryan Brown

they've been rejected. You know, they they're they're community friends and things like that. There are so few,

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Ryan Brown

safe havens for them in which they can just be a kid, you know, and yet in, in the midst of that, they've said, no, Christ, they've chosen Christ.

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Pat McCalla

you know, I was also thinking, as we're talking, there's a special place in what you already you were referenced as a little bit a metaphorical table,

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Pat McCalla

and it's it's a metaphor that Jesus used often. Right. Like the Great Bake went and things

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Ryan Brown

like that

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Pat McCalla

When we get in heaven sitting around and having these meals together.

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Pat McCalla

But when you read the end of the story revelation, where John the apostle John gets kind of a picture, the vision of this future. But when he's describing that, there's.

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Pat McCalla

A lot of crazy stuff in that

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Ryan Brown

:: 19:10:28

Pat McCalla

literature. But one of the things.

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Pat McCalla

That I hope our listeners don't miss is that the the, the martyrs, the people who

:: 19:20:04

Ryan Brown

yeah,

:: 19:20:22

Pat McCalla

life for that. There's an honor that they receive in the new heavens, the new Earth. It's above anything

:: 19:26:28

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 19:27:28

Ryan Brown

Well, and you know, what's so interesting is,

:: 19:30:17

Ryan Brown

he says that, you know, that the dragon that the devil is, is, is overcome by the blood of the lamb. So the sacrifice of Jesus and the testimony of the saints, versus that there's a power in these stories to and you talk about, okay, what we have to learn is, I think that those are the testimonies that as we share with one another, as we reflect upon, there's a power there that I don't think we should be quick to, to overlook.

:: 19:55:00

Pat McCalla

I just got goosebumps when you said, I mean, really and I mean, at this time.

:: 19:58:21

Pat McCalla

It's

:: 19:58:25

Ryan Brown

one of my favorite verses, there's a

:: 20:00:22

Pat McCalla

a joke. I say that all the time, but

:: 20:02:06

Pat McCalla

man, I love that one.

:: 20:03:01

Pat McCalla

Because if any of our listeners, if they were grew up in the church, they. We've heard a lot about the blood of the lamb, the blood of

:: 20:08:23

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 20:09:12

Pat McCalla

So we get that part of the verse, but it says that the enemy was defeated by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. Our stories,

:: 20:16:10

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 20:16:23

Pat McCalla

your story, my story, especially the persecuted church story.

:: 20:20:23

Pat McCalla

it's part of what defeats the enemy.

:: 20:22:18

Ryan Brown

Christ is present there.

:: 20:23:23

Pat McCalla

Yeah.

:: 20:24:06

Ryan Brown

He shows up in these stories.

:: 20:25:29

Pat McCalla

Yeah.

:: 20:26:14

Pat McCalla

hink throughout the ages, for: 2000

:: 20:38:11

Pat McCalla

or by comfort, but we see the persecution having. No. And he can't, and it hasn't been able to do it. In fact, what ends up happening often is the church becomes even stronger.

:: 20:46:10

Pat McCalla

Right.

:: 20:46:23

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 20:47:20

Pat McCalla

why do you think that is?

:: 20:48:25

Host

Hey, we hope you've enjoyed this episode so far. Be sure to like and subscribe to not miss a future podcast! Okay, let's get back to the episode.

:: 20:56:03

Ryan Brown

I think, you know, it comes back to what you were saying earlier that it it drives the choice, you know, in comfort. We can postpone choices. You know, there's not an immediacy or a need to land that decision. I mean, how many of us, you know, have lived so much of our life? You know, it's good to have a future orientation, to be looking towards the future.

:: 21:16:07

Ryan Brown

But

:: 21:16:13

Ryan Brown

Christ has a plan for us right here, right now as well. It's not just a future plan for our lives. It's a present plan for our lives. And you know that in comfort, we sometimes have the luxury of pushing those decisions down the road in persecution, you're often not given that it's, you know, that decision is being thrust upon you.

:: 21:37:04

Ryan Brown

And so it requires that decision to be be made now. And, you know, because of that and again, with Christ present in that decision

:: 21:44:20

Ryan Brown

for so many, it's what the consequences are high. For some that that decision is still easy. It's it's a no brainer for them. It's a difficult thing to count the cost, but one that's that count.

:: 22:00:03

Ryan Brown

Cost is counted.

:: 22:01:13

Ryan Brown

The decision is easy.

:: 22:03:22

Pat McCalla

Yeah.

:: 22:04:07

Pat McCalla

and to your point you're you're quoting Luke 14, right? Counting the cost where Jesus

:: 22:09:10

Pat McCalla

got this huge crowd following him and he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

:: 22:12:10

Pat McCalla

I don't think you guys know exactly what I mean.

:: 22:14:13

Pat McCalla

When I'm saying this is going to cost you. And then that's when he gives that whole thing where, you.

:: 22:17:28

Pat McCalla

Know, you.

:: 22:18:26

Pat McCalla

Got to give up your family.

:: 22:20:08

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 22:21:03

Pat McCalla

you give up your life, take up your cross. And he's like, so who's in? Who's with me? But what you're saying is that when you go to these parts of the world where there's persecution, those people have had to already sit down and go, am I going to follow Jesus no matter what?

:: 22:37:08

Pat McCalla

Now, I did that at church camp when I was a kid.

:: 22:39:19

Ryan Brown

right?

:: 22:40:25

Pat McCalla

Half a dozen times

:: 22:41:20

Ryan Brown

I

:: 22:42:14

Pat McCalla

Throw the stick in the

:: 22:43:03

Ryan Brown

fire, but

:: 22:43:23

Pat McCalla

this time I mean it,

:: 22:45:13

Pat McCalla

I'm, I'm being facetious there, but but there was a difference

:: 22:49:10

Pat McCalla

not right or wrong. I just happened to grow up in America.

:: 22:51:19

Ryan Brown

Yeah, I grew

:: 22:52:04

Pat McCalla

up, but I didn't when I threw.

:: 22:53:15

Pat McCalla

That stick in.

:: 22:53:28

Pat McCalla

The fire and said, this time, I mean it,

:: 22:56:04

Pat McCalla

I was pretty confident that I wasn't going to go home and get maybe murdered.

:: 23:00:25

Ryan Brown

right.

:: 23:01:14

Pat McCalla

Or I watched my family get murdered in a lot of parts of the world. When they.

:: 23:05:09

Pat McCalla

Say that.

:: 23:06:08

Pat McCalla

That is that, that is what could happen.

:: 23:08:04

Ryan Brown

That's absolutely the cost.

:: 23:09:12

Pat McCalla

counted the cost.

:: 23:10:14

Ryan Brown

Yeah, absolutely. And when that cast cost has been counted and you know that that decision has been made. Absolutely. That propels things forward, that you know, that, yeah. I don't think it's coincidental. I mean, God could have had his church and acts grow any way that he so desired. But more often than not, you know, the thrust, the vehicle that he used was persecution.

:: 23:35:26

Ryan Brown

Whether that persecution was to create a diaspora in which, you know, people went to to multiple different places and carried that gospel forward in other places where it just forced that decision to be made that, you know, I choose Christ above all else.

:: 23:50:03

Pat McCalla

Ryan, one thing that this is so fun for me, this you don't know this, but my life is in some ways kind of coming full circle, sitting down with you. I was telling this to my wife, and we were driving today on the way here, and I said, you know what's fun is that in sixth or seventh grade, I read, Brother Andrew's book.

:: 24:08:02

Ryan Brown

Okay.

:: 24:09:03

Ryan Brown

God. Smuggler. God, yes.

:: 24:10:22

Pat McCalla

yes, I read his book. And then I ended up reading a couple of times, and I was just fascinated.

:: 24:14:05

Ryan Brown

Second

:: 24:14:23

Pat McCalla

grade,

:: 24:15:10

Pat McCalla

read tortured for Christ a couple times, got smuggler a couple of times. So these these became kind of foundational, stories for my life

:: 24:24:18

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 24:25:00

Pat McCalla

is, is a believer in America where I probably wasn't going to face that kind of

:: 24:29:11

Pat McCalla

of, persecution.

:: 24:30:29

Pat McCalla

But here we are. That was a long time ago. Now I'm 53, so six grade, 12 years old. That was a long time ago. Here I am sitting down with a friend of mine that I worked with 20 years ago, who's now leading the organization

:: 24:42:21

Ryan Brown

that was

:: 24:44:09

Pat McCalla

started by Brother Andrew's.

:: 24:45:29

Pat McCalla

Book and story in God Smuggler.

:: 24:48:21

Pat McCalla

but in that I want I.

:: 24:49:29

Pat McCalla

Want you just to kind of unpack for us as listeners, why is it important for us in the West, where we're probably not going to face at least today it could change. We're probably not going to face persecution, but why should we care about someone on the other side of the world that is facing persecution?

:: 25:07:07

Ryan Brown

Yeah. Great question. And the reason for that is that we are one body. You know, Scripture says when one part of the body rejoices, we all rejoice with it. When one part suffers, we all suffer with it. And, you know, it is an error in our thinking to think even of a persecuted church and a free church.

:: 25:26:13

Ryan Brown

There is one church. We are one body.

:: 25:29:12

Ryan Brown

if one part is suffering, we are suffering or we're living in denial. And so if we're living in denial, we're not healthy either. And so, you know, there anything that we would would say that, okay, you know what? We're sheltered or secure from that. We're you know, we're fooling ourselves, you know, that there's we're inviting a cancer in that ultimately is going to eat away at it.

:: 25:53:28

Ryan Brown

You know, that the church here as well.

:: 25:56:02

Pat McCalla

Love what you just did there though, because you you got me thinking, I've even use that phrase a couple of times in our short interview so far, where I am making this dichotomy between the persecuted church and then our church in the West, and you're saying, well, there's a little error in that because it's one church.

:: 26:11:20

Ryan Brown

Yeah, it's I mean, and one some of those labels can be illustrative for conversation and stuff like that, and absolutely nothing wrong with using those. I use those same terms all the time.

:: 26:20:08

Pat McCalla

making me feel

:: 26:20:22

Ryan Brown

that.

:: 26:21:05

Ryan Brown

But I love you back. But when it comes to, you know, if that

:: 26:24:28

Ryan Brown

really then starts to to characterize how we think about the church, that's where we start to invite some problems in.

:: 26:31:20

Ryan Brown

Yeah,

:: 26:32:03

Pat McCalla

you know when you were saying that I was thinking again you know when you say we rejoice or we suffer

:: 26:37:19

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 26:38:04

Pat McCalla

as one, but you know if you've ever hit your thumb with a hammer or something when you're working and even that night when you go to bed and you're laying there in bed, all you can think about the rest of your body doesn't matter.

:: 26:48:16

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 26:49:03

Pat McCalla

you feel the heartbeat, right? In every heartbeat you

:: 26:51:10

Ryan Brown

Yep.

:: 26:51:25

Pat McCalla

something like, oh, you can't go to sleep.

:: 26:53:17

Pat McCalla

And I that's what I thought.

:: 26:55:15

Pat McCalla

Instantly I thought that picture of when you're going, like, if my Sudanese brother that you just shared, I don't know his name. I don't know what he looks like, but that's kind of that if I if I really understand and I'm going to try to live out that verse where we suffer as one and we rejoice as one, then that that should matter to me.

:: 27:17:00

Ryan Brown

I think that there are elements of that, that it's we have to rewire our brains. We have to, to, to prioritize those things. You know, it's I came on board, you know, in full disclosure here, I'll talk about my journey. I mean, it, you know, I recognized how much I had to learn, and we make a tremendous number of prayer resources available and things like that.

:: 27:41:24

Ryan Brown

I can't tell you how easy I found it to justify. You have to busyness or through other things or, you know, split attentions.

:: 27:50:09

Ryan Brown

Why? I couldn't get to those prayer resources myself today, you know, and it required, a consistent pattern of just being able to, like we were talking about earlier, where, you know, that that gratitude, you know, when you start, you know, with intentionality, seek to look for gratitude.

:: 28:07:04

Ryan Brown

It starts to reshape the way that you think. And there's so many of those aspects of,

:: 28:13:18

Ryan Brown

no or fallen resentful. We may not care about our brother and sister around the globe. That's not right. It it's not something that we should should be okay with,

:: 28:23:01

Ryan Brown

but we we we have to do something about that. We have to allow ourselves to be rewired.

:: 28:27:22

Ryan Brown

We have to allow the Holy Spirit to come in and invade places and up in places of our heart and our mind and life and allow, you know, some of these practices to become regular cadences in our life and start to rewire us.

:: 28:42:00

Pat McCalla

Yeah.

:: 28:42:26

Pat McCalla

So how do we do that.

:: 28:44:06

Pat McCalla

How do we like.

:: 28:44:29

Pat McCalla

You, you've said and so share some of the resources that we can get through your organization. But how would you say like most of our audience listening right now, we're not in those situations. We aren't having

:: 28:54:21

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 28:55:12

Pat McCalla

But

:: 28:56:16

Pat McCalla

as you said we're one body. So how do we support them? You talked about,

:: 29:01:21

Pat McCalla

prayer

:: 29:02:06

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 29:02:21

Pat McCalla

some, some ways we can do that, but what are some things that we can do?

:: 29:05:29

Ryan Brown

You know what is amazing to me?

:: 29:09:02

Ryan Brown

Is by and large, when, you know, we sit down and ask, you know, okay, well, in what ways can we support the church in, in these areas? The thing that people most ask for is to be remembered in prayer, that there is something powerful for them to know that they're that they are one part of a body of believers that extends around the globe, and that they are not forgotten, that there are people that care about them in their circumstances.

:: 29:35:12

Ryan Brown

I can't tell you how many folks you know. I've heard that as they've they've come out of prison and, you know, heard that. Okay. There were, you know, countless number of people that had rallied around. And we're we're praying for them. You know, how you've driven

:: 29:50:29

Ryan Brown

to tears by the encouragement of knowing that,

:: 29:55:06

Ryan Brown

they've been not been forgotten by by those brothers and sisters around the globe.

:: 29:59:26

Ryan Brown

You know, it has a a very, you know, even tangible impact in the life of our brothers and sisters to lift them up in prayer. But darn it, if that's not

:: 30:13:00

Ryan Brown

all it does. I mean, you know, Christ, when we focus our mind and our hearts on those things through consistency and we're praying on those things,

:: 30:23:11

Ryan Brown

Holy Spirit starts to use those to reshape us, you know?

:: 30:26:00

Ryan Brown

And so as as we start to, you know, just lean in, in prayer. And I'm a big fan of, you know, starting small. You know, you talked about youth camp. I've been to some of those camps where, you know, you get there and, you know, the sticking to the fire and say, you know, I'm going to read the Bible by 3:00 on Wednesday.

:: 30:44:07

Ryan Brown

You know, I'm going to read the whole thing, you know, and you just have these huge, ambitious goals of Monday. Exactly. And, you know, it's like, well, what if instead of that, you just did one paragraph, you know, that's what I do with my kids sit at home, you know, say, you know, hey, you know, every day we're just going to read, you know, Bibles broken up in all these paragraphs.

:: 31:04:12

Ryan Brown

You're going to read one of those and. Yeah. Yeah. And when once that starts to become a habit, that starts to become a routine,

:: 31:12:25

Ryan Brown

know, you start to, to go from there. I mean, that's how

:: 31:15:20

Ryan Brown

Most people wouldn't guess. I ran a marathon, but when I ran one marathon once years ago, I did. And that's not one of my two truths are lie, by the way. So yes, I was.

:: 31:24:20

Ryan Brown

Well, maybe.

:: 31:25:11

Ryan Brown

Yeah. Yeah. But, I started literally by running one minute the next week. I ran two minutes. The next week I ran three minutes. And after, you know, 12 weeks or so, you get to the point. It's like, well, I can do more than 12 minutes, you know, I can go, you know, this part of your habit is part of your routine.

:: 31:45:04

Ryan Brown

You're starting to feel some of the physical effects of it, and was able to start taking even larger

:: 31:49:22

Pat McCalla

two hours and ten

:: 31:50:16

Ryan Brown

Yeah. Not quite back light. Yeah.

:: 31:54:18

Ryan Brown

I don't care

:: 31:55:23

Pat McCalla

how slow or fast you ran it. If you run 26.2 miles, that's impressive.

:: 32:00:09

Ryan Brown

Well, it's.

:: 32:01:07

Pat McCalla

to your point, you started by running a minute.

:: 32:03:03

Ryan Brown

Exactly, exactly. You didn't start running 26.2 miles. You start by running a minute.

:: 32:08:22

Pat McCalla

and sisters that are being persecuted around the world, you're saying one of the most important ways that we can support them is to pray

:: 32:15:13

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 32:16:01

Pat McCalla

and maybe start small.

:: 32:17:08

Pat McCalla

So what would that

:: 32:18:00

Ryan Brown

I utilized a prayer calendar that we put out.

:: 32:21:04

Ryan Brown

it's two months and every day it has like 1 to 2 sentences, you know, highlighting a particular country, a particular individual, a particular situation and circumstance. And it gives you something to to pray about. And these aren't just things that you're praying on behalf. These are things that, you know, brothers and sisters have mentioned.

:: 32:39:07

Ryan Brown

So we're not just praying for them. We're praying with them because these are the things they're praying for. Yeah, yeah. And so just to have that, you know, 1 or 2 sentences that, you know, it takes 20s, it takes 30s, but, you know, again, one minute comes, two minutes becomes, three minutes becomes. And, you know, we find that, you know, as we're just faithful in those little things, you know, and again, there's a scriptural principle there that we start to see those those things get multiple multiplied.

:: 33:07:29

Pat McCalla

This fits so well into the whole theme of our podcast. We talked about the power

:: 33:11:21

Ryan Brown

Yeah, yeah,

:: 33:12:13

Pat McCalla

human choice

:: 33:12:28

Ryan Brown

yeah.

:: 33:13:15

Pat McCalla

choices, and eventually our choices make us what you're saying. And it's kind of been a theme since we started our interview today, is that that the choices we make, the small choices we make. Because right now we're talking about praying.

:: 33:24:23

Ryan Brown

Yep.

:: 33:25:14

Pat McCalla

persecuted church. That choice is going to have a compound impact in your life over the over weeks or months.

:: 33:32:08

Ryan Brown

It well,

:: 33:33:03

Pat McCalla

do that and you start with, like you said, 1 or 2 sentences,

:: 33:36:04

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 33:36:18

Pat McCalla

where would we find where would our audience? Where would I find this, this prayer counter you're talking

:: 33:40:16

Ryan Brown

Yeah. So, you can just go to open doors U.S dot org and, you'll see in the drop down, you know, prayer resources and, and you can sign up to have sent to you via email. And we also send those out via the mail. You can receive them a variety of different ways. And they're they're presented in a variety of different ways because, you know, different people find different tools helpful.

:: 34:04:25

Ryan Brown

And so, there's a variety there. I also encourage people to, we put out every year a world watch list in which we highlight the 50 countries around the globe in which Christians are most persecuted or discriminated against because of their faith. And we have a World Watch List book that's not just an informational resource. It it talks about persecution in those countries.

:: 34:24:29

Ryan Brown

But again, it lists the specific prayer points. And so, you know, in a 50 different countries in a 52 week year, you know, those things can can line up nicely. You know, every week, you know, you, read through

:: 34:38:06

Ryan Brown

about a different country and, you know, spend prayer during that week for that particular country.

:: 34:43:15

Pat McCalla

Man, I can't recommend enough to our audience to do this. I just think, you know, you and I worked for an organization where we work

:: 34:49:01

Ryan Brown

together

:: 34:49:23

Pat McCalla

that was working in communities that were in poverty. Now you're working for an organization that we're working with, communities that have a lot of, persecution going on. But I would always say and you would say this to back when we worked at that other organization where we would say, man, it will completely change the lens you look through for the rest of your life.

:: 35:07:25

Pat McCalla

If you take a trip and you go over and you start seeing that

:: 35:11:09

Pat McCalla

the world doesn't live like we live

:: 35:12:22

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 35:13:11

Pat McCalla

and it will change. But I think the same with this. If

:: 35:16:15

Pat McCalla

myself and our audience will start praying, just start with 1 or 2 sentences and use the tools that you're describing, it will change the lens that you look through for the rest of your life.

:: 35:28:06

Ryan Brown

Absolutely.

:: 35:28:22

Ryan Brown

Would you agree?

:: 35:29:08

Ryan Brown

I would absolutely agree with that.

:: 35:30:23

Ryan Brown

seen that time and time again and I'm experiencing that as well.

:: 35:34:02

Pat McCalla

Yeah,

:: 35:34:15

Pat McCalla

I love that. That's one of the things I love about you, Ryan, wherever you are, you're not just leading these things. You're actually living it

:: 35:41:03

Ryan Brown

the

:: 35:41:27

Pat McCalla

same time. So you've brought that up a couple of times here how you're leading this organization. But this organization and what they're doing, God is using it to change your life in the midst of that, too, which I love.

:: 35:52:00

Pat McCalla

That's why I think you're such a

:: 35:52:26

Ryan Brown

well.

:: 35:53:14

Ryan Brown

And I think that's a testament to how, again, Christ has built his church that, you know, so often, you know, we can in the West. And it's strictly because, you know, we have resource. We, we, we enter into this dynamic where, okay, you know, we are able to provide benefit and aid to other folks.

:: 36:11:24

Ryan Brown

Yes, that is true.

:: 36:12:17

Ryan Brown

We are able to, to do some of those things. But that's not it's not a one way street. I mean, there's, Christ has designed it. And I would argue that honestly, you know, the things that they have to offer us a much greater significance and what we have to offer in the form of resources,

:: 36:29:19

Ryan Brown

those things are transformative.

:: 36:32:00

Ryan Brown

And so, yeah, that's

:: 36:33:14

Ryan Brown

We miss out on an opportunity if we don't approach with some degree of humility and recognize, you know, brothers and sisters have so much to teach us.

:: 36:41:14

Pat McCalla

Yeah.

:: 36:42:04

Pat McCalla

Well, one of our mutual friends would use the phrase end to end transformation,

:: 36:45:28

Ryan Brown

Yeah. Yep. Now

:: 36:47:17

Pat McCalla

we think that we're going in or when we start praying for the persecuted, persecuted church in this case, that we're transforming or helping to transform those communities or those lives. But what actually ends up happening a lot of times is, yes, that may happen, but but God is using it especially to transform our life.

:: 37:03:22

Pat McCalla

It's

:: 37:04:02

Ryan Brown

absolutely, absolutely one way street.

:: 37:07:01

Ryan Brown

Yeah,

:: 37:07:12

Pat McCalla

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

:: 37:09:17

Pat McCalla

So let me ask you, I want to jump into this really quickly.

:: 37:11:16

Pat McCalla

You're you're a great writer.

:: 37:12:19

Pat McCalla

By the way. So I would

:: 37:13:23

Ryan Brown

or thank you. If

:: 37:14:23

Pat McCalla

they,

:: 37:15:13

Pat McCalla

go search you on, on LinkedIn.

:: 37:16:26

Pat McCalla

Or do you, do you post these blogs

:: 37:18:11

Ryan Brown

I

:: 37:18:23

Pat McCalla

open doors

:: 37:20:15

Ryan Brown

So usually on some of the other platforms, like biblical leadership or things like that.

:: 37:25:23

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 37:26:06

Pat McCalla

Yeah. You've written some.

:: 37:26:26

Pat McCalla

Great

:: 37:27:17

Ryan Brown

Oh thank you.

:: 37:28:09

Pat McCalla

so let me just mention a few of them and then we'll, we'll unpack them a little bit

:: 37:31:15

Ryan Brown

Sure. But

:: 37:32:06

Pat McCalla

you wrote one called Leading Beyond Expectations Embracing God's Unexpected Plans.

:: 37:38:14

Ryan Brown

Yes,

:: 37:38:29

Pat McCalla

love this title so

:: 37:40:23

Pat McCalla

Leading beyond expectations, embracing God's unexpected plans.

:: 37:44:13

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 37:44:29

Pat McCalla

here's why I like it. Then I want you to speak into it.

:: 37:47:15

Pat McCalla

I preach a sermon years ago where I said God is consistently inconsistent.

:: 37:51:06

Pat McCalla

And what I meant by.

:: 37:52:06

Pat McCalla

That is that there's, there's this dichotomy where we see that God is consistent, right?

:: 37:56:04

Ryan Brown

God.

:: 37:56:11

Ryan Brown

Is more of God's.

:: 37:57:04

Pat McCalla

is holy. God is righteous. God. It's just we can come up with this list where he's consistently those things, how he works in and through people is consistently inconsistent. It's it's it's why I loved the way the book of John ends, where Peter, Jesus was telling Peter about how his life is going to end.

:: 38:13:03

Pat McCalla

And he goes, what about him? And he points to.

:: 38:14:14

Pat McCalla

John and Jesus. Like, that's

:: 38:16:00

Ryan Brown

not your yeah,

:: 38:16:27

Pat McCalla

I may do something completely different when John and I do with you.

:: 38:20:06

Pat McCalla

So God's plans.

:: 38:22:03

Pat McCalla

Are often unexpected.

:: 38:24:27

Pat McCalla

And I think that's kind of what you.

:: 38:26:01

Pat McCalla

Wrote with so,

:: 38:26:21

Ryan Brown

yeah.

:: 38:27:04

Pat McCalla

so unpack

:: 38:27:24

Ryan Brown

What I mean, when you think about it to that, I mean, we are finite. You know, I've

:: 38:32:23

Ryan Brown

my brain is only so big and, you know, do I really want a God that can be comprehended by my, my limited brain that that can fit into the box of my past experience as far as ways that God can or should move.

:: 38:48:20

Ryan Brown

And so, you know, that was a particular blog that, was was focusing on, you know, the biblical account and kings and chronicles, it's word for word, the same account. And in both, both books that, you know, David is bringing the ark back into the city of Jerusalem and, you know, it's on, on an ox cart. And they've got, you know, the tambourines, they've got the horns, they're bringing it with celebration.

:: 39:10:27

Ryan Brown

It's they're bringing, you know, there's this physical representation of the presence of God back into Jerusalem. You know, the heart of Israel. One of the ark stumbles. A priest puts his hand on it, and he struck dead. You know, God said that if you touch the ark, you will you will die. And he was struck dead. And suddenly, you know, David is fearful.

:: 39:30:03

Ryan Brown

He was angry. And, you know, no longer he stopped that that process, you know, that didn't go to Jerusalem. It went to stay at a farmer's house. And you know how often are we like that, that, you know, when when God is moving on our terms the way that we want and expect him to move. We greet it with tambourines, celebration, parades and that type of thing.

:: 39:50:18

Ryan Brown

But as soon as God shows that he's not confined or limited to to the ways that we expect him to work, suddenly we start fearing and suddenly we don't even want it in our city. You know, we we start putting it at bay. And so,

:: 40:05:13

Ryan Brown

if we truly want to see God at work, we have to to let God work on his terms rather than ours.

:: 40:11:14

Pat McCalla

Oh, man. Audience, I beg you to try to get this. I beg you to try again. I'm trying to get this.

:: 40:18:03

Pat McCalla

I think this is probably one of the key areas that God has been working in my life for the

:: 40:21:03

Ryan Brown

your.

:: 40:21:16

Ryan Brown

Arm.

:: 40:22:07

Pat McCalla

the verse in Isaiah, his ways are higher than our ways, his thoughts higher

:: 40:26:07

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 40:26:26

Pat McCalla

How much higher? Higher than the heavens are from the earth? How much higher the heavens are from the earth?

:: 40:30:05

Pat McCalla

Well, we don't even know. Science keeps building bigger and bigger

:: 40:32:19

Ryan Brown

Yeah. You

:: 40:33:18

Pat McCalla

seeing further and further out there. And it keeps going. I mean, we can't even

:: 40:37:14

Ryan Brown

Right now how much

:: 40:38:05

Pat McCalla

higher.

:: 40:39:03

Pat McCalla

So. So God is so much bigger than us. But I do think that so often we live our lives expecting God to be finite like us.

:: 40:48:15

Ryan Brown

Yeah, I

:: 40:49:00

Pat McCalla

even think

:: 40:49:19

Pat McCalla

one of the problems with the with the church, I put in quotes, I mean, all these denominations we have now, you know, we've got thousands of denominations. And part of the problem is, is every time we come to another part in the Bible that we don't quite understand, and we start discussing it and and arguing about it, we split have another denomination now,

:: 41:07:19

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 41:08:06

Pat McCalla

instead of sometimes going like,

:: 41:10:02

Pat McCalla

I, you know, I don't know.

:: 41:10:29

Pat McCalla

Ephesians one four says he chose us for the foundation of the world. And nine verses later says, having believed you were sealed by the Holy Spirit, is it predestination or did you have a choice in it? And then we've.

:: 41:20:10

Pat McCalla

Split churches over that instead of going, they're both taught.

:: 41:24:06

Pat McCalla

My finite mind can understand how those go together. He's God, I'm not.

:: 41:27:21

Pat McCalla

but to your point, where it gets really practical is, like you said, the second week, God doesn't do things the way we think he should do them.

:: 41:36:16

Pat McCalla

We're like, I'm out.

:: 41:37:16

Ryan Brown

Yeah,

:: 41:38:01

Pat McCalla

that's the danger of

:: 41:39:06

Pat McCalla

wanting.

:: 41:39:25

Pat McCalla

Or expecting God to to do things a certain.

:: 41:41:27

Ryan Brown

Exactly that. Back to that idea of a consumer that, you know, when God is meeting our needs the way we want him to, to meet him, right? Yeah, we'll continue to be that consumer. But once God shows us that, you know, I love like C.S. Lewis says it, that, you know,

:: 41:55:26

Ryan Brown

he can be a dangerous god, you know, that, once we're willing to embrace that, that that changes everything.

:: 42:01:24

Pat McCalla

You know, one of my favorite messages ever got to speak, it was in acts, and it goes rolling a story, and it goes with persecuted church,

:: 42:07:23

Ryan Brown

So

:: 42:08:25

Pat McCalla

James and Peter both arrested. You remember that? And then the story of Peter. There's one little tiny verse in the beginning of the chapter I'm gonna come back to.

:: 42:15:11

Pat McCalla

I'm going to it right now to leave it as a surprise

:: 42:17:07

Ryan Brown

Okay.

:: 42:17:26

Pat McCalla

But the story is that that amazing, miraculous story of Peter being.

:: 42:22:26

Pat McCalla

Released from prison. And remember, like the angel comes in.

:: 42:25:10

Pat McCalla

And the door opens for him. And I'm picturing like the

:: 42:28:05

Ryan Brown

yeah, the

:: 42:29:13

Pat McCalla

squeaky door.

:: 42:30:12

Pat McCalla

Chains fall off. And I mean, it's just an amazing story.

:: 42:33:10

Pat McCalla

And then the the church, the praying in this room for him.

:: 42:36:22

Pat McCalla

And Peter knocks

:: 42:37:13

Ryan Brown

on the door and a woman

:: 42:38:12

Pat McCalla

Comes and answers the door, and they're praying at that moment for Peter to be released and the miracle standing in front of them. And she can't even believe it. And so it's just this crazy story where Peter's miraculous released from prison. But what people miss a lot of times at the beginning of the chapter.

:: 42:51:15

Pat McCalla

It says, And James was arrested and beheaded.

:: 42:53:19

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 42:54:06

Pat McCalla

And I go, wait, what?

:: 42:57:11

Pat McCalla

Why did you miraculously release Peter? I can sometimes wonder what James family was thinking, you know, where are they.

:: 43:04:09

Pat McCalla

Going when.

:: 43:05:07

Ryan Brown

Yeah. This is for Peter. Why not? Yep.

:: 43:07:15

Pat McCalla

that's kind of your point, right?

:: 43:08:25

Ryan Brown

Absolutely. We see that all the time. I mean, I can't I mean, I think every one of us know somebody who's been touched by cancer and, you know, I've heard stories of dramatic healing. And I've also experienced tremendous loss. And, you know, God is not obligated to work in the same way. And we just have to trust again that Romans 828 truth that God is working these things together for a good in a way that my feeble mind may not be able to wrap my brain around.

:: 43:39:02

Ryan Brown

You know, I may never understand. I may never have the justification for it this side of eternity. Other than that faith in that and that hope and knowing that God says, no, someday, you know we'll be face to face.

:: 43:51:10

Ryan Brown

We'll stand together and you'll see, oh, you know what this was good. That that that was really just a light, momentary affliction.

:: 43:59:02

Ryan Brown

This was good.

:: 43:59:27

Pat McCalla

You know, if I'm really transparent with this conversation we're having right now, you know, because we we met, we talked about this and I've shared this publicly on this podcast, but my struggle with panic attacks and anxiety and as a communicator and a speaker, I'm blown away by how many books that are out there now by someone who had, you know, like a world renowned speaker and they have a panic

:: 44:18:26

Ryan Brown

attack.

:: 44:19:23

Pat McCalla

whatever.

:: 44:20:22

Pat McCalla

And, and then they go through some stuff and they change their diet and they go to a therapist and they pray, and then God heals.

:: 44:27:04

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 44:27:23

Pat McCalla

have bigger stages.

:: 44:28:27

Pat McCalla

that's an amazing book. That's not my story yet. Maybe it will be. Maybe it won't be. I sometimes have gone to God and said, wait, how come this person got through this and they're healed?

:: 44:41:19

Pat McCalla

And now there's. And I did, and but I've come to the point, Ryan, where. And I think that's why God is dealing with this with me so much on this. I've come to the point where I've been like,

:: 44:50:11

Pat McCalla

maybe you still will. God, I'm still going to pray to be released from that. But if you never do this, this suffering I'm going through, if you will,

:: 44:58:28

Ryan Brown

Yep,

:: 44:59:12

Pat McCalla

a gift.

:: 45:00:19

Pat McCalla

And that's a different way to look at it,

:: 45:02:06

Ryan Brown

It is

:: 45:03:09

Pat McCalla

Look at it.

:: 45:03:27

Ryan Brown

at, I think one that we're called to and it's, it is not easy.

:: 45:10:15

Pat McCalla

To process to get there

:: 45:11:20

Ryan Brown

To get there. Yeah. Yeah. It, it is difficult. It, it requires a truly a laying down. And there's something we talked earlier about that life of a disciple. You know, that that is a cross that we, we take up to lay down these expectations, to lay down those rights that at times we think that we have.

:: 45:28:10

Pat McCalla

those rights.

:: 45:29:21

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 45:30:10

Pat McCalla

powerful,

:: 45:30:25

Pat McCalla

those rights.

:: 45:31:18

Pat McCalla

Because there are so many times, especially a culture, the culture that we grew up, rights or so

:: 45:36:27

Pat McCalla

you know, we have our Constitution talks about our

:: 45:38:23

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 45:39:07

Pat McCalla

and I'm all for that.

:: 45:40:03

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 45:40:20

Pat McCalla

But we do. We start living our Christian life like that. Like this is my right.

:: 45:43:25

Ryan Brown

Yeah,

:: 45:44:12

Ryan Brown

absolutely.

:: 45:44:23

Ryan Brown

For

:: 45:44:28

Pat McCalla

him. You should do it for me.

:: 45:45:26

Pat McCalla

You did it for her. You should do it for me. It's my right.

:: 45:47:24

Ryan Brown

Absolutely.

:: 45:48:23

Pat McCalla

That's not true.

:: 45:49:14

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 45:50:10

Ryan Brown

Well then to wrestle with that, that he certainly can do those things but he doesn't. Okay. Well why.

:: 45:57:10

Pat McCalla

Well along that you wrote another, blog or post or article praying for discernment, not just for decisions kind of goes along with this again, but I love that. What's the difference between, for our audience, for myself, when I'm praying? What's the difference for me, praying for discernment versus me praying for decisions. Because I think probably most of us would admit I'm usually praying for decisions

:: 46:20:19

Ryan Brown

Yeah,

:: 46:21:00

Pat McCalla

God, do this.

:: 46:22:03

Pat McCalla

Please God, do this.

:: 46:23:00

Ryan Brown

Yeah. Decision.

:: 46:24:04

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 46:24:21

Host

As we're wrapping up this episode. Be sure to leave us a five star review. And if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment on something you'll take away. All right, let's hop back into the remainder of the episode.

:: 46:35:26

Ryan Brown

you know that blog does talk about that. You know most of the decisions, you know, we will make and we make and take a step forward in this faith that, you know, we're ever increasingly being conformed to the image of Christ. We're increasingly making decisions that are that are Christ like. But what was also trying to get at was this idea that, you know, so often we make our decisions and we ask God to bless our plans.

:: 47:00:21

Ryan Brown

You know, we say, God, I'm taking a step forward. God, please.

:: 47:05:03

Ryan Brown

come along. You know, God, follow me. You know, and and, you know, sprinkle your, you know, your religious glory just on this God, you know, and my decision as opposed to saying, you know, taking that step back and saying, hey, God, what are you looking to to accomplish?

:: 47:23:04

Ryan Brown

And, you know, it specifically was referencing, you know, the account of, you know, David and looking to build the temple. And, you know, he went to Nathan and and said, you know,

:: 47:33:18

Ryan Brown

I'm living in the house of Cedar. God is, you know, his presence is a tent. You know, I want to build a temple. And, you know, Nathan,

:: 47:40:08

Ryan Brown

you know, looking at every outside, you know, justification, reasonably and smartly said, God is with you.

:: 47:47:22

Ryan Brown

you know, when you even now,: 2000

:: 48:08:14

Ryan Brown

You

:: 48:08:17

Ryan Brown

know, it's not like he was always right.

:: 48:10:09

Ryan Brown

Exactly.

:: 48:11:23

Ryan Brown

You know, it's not like: 2000

:: 48:13:02

Ryan Brown

you know, we could still have: 2000

:: 48:31:25

Ryan Brown

But yet if we do, at least, you know, in humility, try to submit some part of that process to say, God, what are you trying to do in this circumstance? What are you trying to show me? What can I learn from this? You know, where are you leading me? And seek to discern that rather than just to to land that decision?

:: 48:50:21

Ryan Brown

You know, we'll find this starts to change the decisions that we do make.

:: 48:54:02

Pat McCalla

And there's such depth in that. Another one

:: 48:56:27

Pat McCalla

when shortcuts miss God's plan. You wrote that when shortcuts miss God's plan.

:: 49:02:23

Ryan Brown

Yeah. Love

:: 49:03:11

Pat McCalla

that one. That tile. I just think as humans we love shortcuts, right? We don't want to do it with our health. We want to do it with spiritual things. We want to do it in marriage.

:: 49:13:02

Ryan Brown

Yeah,

:: 49:13:24

Pat McCalla

instant great marriage. But but most things in life that we see take time.

:: 49:18:29

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 49:19:21

Pat McCalla

Where do you see us doing that? Especially in our faith journeys.

:: 49:22:26

Ryan Brown

it's so closely related to that, that idea of, of, you know, that decisions versus discernment that, you know, as we make the decisions,

:: 49:33:13

Ryan Brown

I mean, our brains process tremendous amounts of information at any given point in time. It it's fascinating to the psychology and, and, you know, just to see how God has wired the human brain to process all of these different things, most of those things are done through shortcuts.

:: 49:50:01

Ryan Brown

You know, there are all sorts of different ways that, you know, our mind is filling in the blanks and assigning meaning to all of these different data points. You know, if if we were trying to process all of those in real time, that there's no way it can be done.

:: 50:02:24

Ryan Brown

But

:: 50:03:05

Pat McCalla

to your point, for an example, can I say

:: 50:04:27

Ryan Brown

yeah,

:: 50:05:14

Pat McCalla

when you first learn to drive a car, you're thinking and concentrating and there's so much, energy you're expanding because you have to think about everything. But the shortcut that your brain eventually takes is now you and I jump in our car. We've been driving long enough.

:: 50:19:11

Pat McCalla

We don't even really think about it anymore. We drive 20 miles, we get to the car, and we haven't. We've been thinking about other things. We haven't been thinking about. Turn your blink. It's

:: 50:27:04

Ryan Brown

Yeah, yeah.

:: 50:28:02

Pat McCalla

that's kind of your point. How God wired our brains to do shortcuts.

:: 50:31:14

Ryan Brown

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So what you know, I think the one that I reference in the, in that particular blog is even the idea of, okay, if you're hiring a candidate, you know, it's smart and it's good. You, you look at the resumes because you know, you're making this mental shortcut that, okay, if somebody has done a job similar to this and somebody else paid them to do it, I may not be silly, you know, to pay this person to do that, that job.

:: 50:55:22

Ryan Brown

Right now.

:: 50:56:21

Ryan Brown

But that doesn't necessarily mean they could have been a cancer at that previous place. It could have been an absolute train wreck, a dumpster fire, you know, for for that organization or that that culture.

:: 51:06:15

Ryan Brown

You know, they're not gonna put that in the resume. And so, you know, the shortcuts, these, these, these cognitive leaps that we make sometimes they're not infallible.

:: 51:14:16

Ryan Brown

And so you know, our our shortcuts, we need to make sure that even those are submitted to, you know, this idea of, of a discernment as far as, okay, well, what is Christ calling us to do? You know, who is the one that Christ has called to build the temple? You know, is it a David? Is it a Solomon?

:: 51:30:20

Ryan Brown

Who is it that we're hiring for our job? Is it, you know, candidate A, candidate B you know what? We can't assume that God is restricted to only work through those cognitive shortcuts that we've that we lean upon. God can and God does often work outside of our cognitive shortcuts.

:: 51:51:09

Pat McCalla

Isn't it interesting how much of our conversation has, has kind of circled or morphed into the other part, like when you're talking about that, it goes back to that whole idea about his unexpected plans.

:: 52:00:20

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 52:01:16

Pat McCalla

always work the same way.

:: 52:02:21

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 52:03:12

Pat McCalla

or through the, the shortcuts.

:: 52:04:29

Pat McCalla

Or. Yeah. Yeah.

:: 52:05:29

Pat McCalla

Amazing. Well, Ryan, man, this has been so amazing. So good to sit down with you. Thank you for what you're doing for your organization. I would encourage our audience give us that, website

:: 52:16:04

Ryan Brown

one more time.

:: 52:16:20

Ryan Brown

Yeah. That is open doors for us, Dorgan.

:: 52:19:28

Pat McCalla

Okay.

:: 52:20:14

Pat McCalla

and we'll have that in the description as well. But I encourage people go, go check it out. Go check out this organization if you want a great organization to support. This is a great organization to to support financially. Certainly with what we talked about before prayer

:: 52:33:06

Pat McCalla

I'm going to go there and I'm going to start that.

:: 52:34:22

Pat McCalla

I'm

:: 52:35:06

Ryan Brown

beautiful.

:: 52:36:13

Pat McCalla

committing. I'm saying this

:: 52:37:22

Ryan Brown

All right.

:: 52:38:22

Ryan Brown

We got it on drops.

:: 52:40:04

Ryan Brown

Yeah I

:: 52:40:19

Pat McCalla

should have already done it. Because I'm going to I'm going to go do.

:: 52:43:19

Pat McCalla

That tomorrow and start that and just

:: 52:45:03

Ryan Brown

know,

:: 52:45:19

Pat McCalla

like praying for the, the church, like you said, it's just 1 or 2 sentences,

:: 52:49:04

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 52:49:29

Pat McCalla

I'm interested to see how that's going to change my perspective over the next 2 or 3 months. So I would really encourage that.

:: 52:56:19

Pat McCalla

How can people connect with you or get out, get Ahold of you,

:: 52:59:17

Ryan Brown

Yeah, I guess it depends on why.

:: 53:03:21

Ryan Brown

I saw you for a

:: 53:04:25

Pat McCalla

second when I asked that. It kind of look like, why are you

:: 53:07:12

Ryan Brown

asking?

:: 53:07:27

Ryan Brown

But yeah. No.

:: 53:10:01

Ryan Brown

Certainly through I mean, LinkedIn, I've got a profile there that,

:: 53:16:00

Ryan Brown

I'm pretty active on that.

:: 53:18:02

Ryan Brown

I was not as active as I probably could be or should be. And, you know, but I do try to keep up with messages and things like that.

:: 53:25:02

Ryan Brown

These articles

:: 53:25:14

Pat McCalla

that we've been referencing and stuff I saw, I've seen some of those in there and, and

:: 53:29:08

Ryan Brown

Yeah yeah yeah yeah,

:: 53:31:04

Pat McCalla

Yeah. So LinkedIn.

:: 53:32:05

Ryan Brown

Yeah LinkedIn and, and even just through open doors. So there's a general contact thing and that

:: 53:37:17

Ryan Brown

find its way to me. Certainly.

:: 53:39:18

Pat McCalla

Well two truths and a lie.

:: 53:40:25

Ryan Brown

Yes.

:: 53:41:13

Pat McCalla

at this point in the podcast, it's ironic because I call this no gray areas or we

:: 53:45:12

Ryan Brown

call this number.

:: 53:46:08

Ryan Brown

And we're fighting the gray.

:: 53:47:20

Ryan Brown

Yes, fighting the gray.

:: 53:49:09

Ryan Brown

But,

:: 53:49:27

Pat McCalla

we've known each other for 20 years.

:: 53:51:21

Ryan Brown

We have each

:: 53:52:16

Pat McCalla

other very often anymore.

:: 53:53:16

Pat McCalla

But see if you can stop me. Three statements. Two will be truths, won't be a lie. Me and the audience are going to try to guess the lie.

:: 53:58:23

Ryan Brown

Okay.

:: 53:59:24

Ryan Brown

As a child, I was a member of the Lee majors fan club, and for those of, depending on your age, you either you know Lee majors as the $6 Million Man, the fall guy, or you've never heard of him. So, he was married to Farrah Fawcett? I think so, yeah. So I was a member of that, the Lee majors fan club.

:: 54:21:28

Ryan Brown

Second one, I once had an opportunity to play a foursome of miniature golf for three holes. One was a guy I didn't know. The other was Charles Barkley from the Phoenix Suns, and the fourth was hunky Cooper from the Arizona Rattlers.

:: 54:39:29

Ryan Brown

Wow.

:: 54:40:26

Ryan Brown

And then the third one is I do not like coffee.

:: 54:44:14

Pat McCalla

Okay. This is these are these are fun because first of all, the Lee majors fan club. I didn't even know I

:: 54:51:03

Ryan Brown

I know that we majors.

:: 54:53:26

Pat McCalla

is. And I would sneak and watch the fall guy because

:: 54:56:12

Ryan Brown

my parents. One okay, so remember.

:: 54:59:01

Ryan Brown

That

:: 54:59:17

Ryan Brown

that was your act of.

:: 55:00:15

Ryan Brown

Rebellion, active

:: 55:01:20

Pat McCalla

of rebellion. So I probably would have been in that fan club.

:: 55:04:27

Pat McCalla

I'm trying to think. Is it was there even really a Lee majors fan club? But that's so out there that I

:: 55:09:04

Ryan Brown

Okay. That's the truth. Okay. Right

:: 55:12:03

Ryan Brown

it.

:: 55:12:07

Ryan Brown

Is. Right?

:: 55:12:21

Ryan Brown

Yeah. You're down to: 5050

:: 55:15:02

Pat McCalla

All right.

:: 55:15:16

Pat McCalla

you don't like coffee? We've we've been at coffee shops a few times together. And try and remember if you got a coffee or not.

:: 55:22:07

Pat McCalla

I got to go with that middle one.

:: 55:23:22

Pat McCalla

The foursome, with, miniature golf. That's true.

:: 55:27:13

Ryan Brown

That is not true.

:: 55:28:05

Ryan Brown

Oh, man. I tried to go with a lot of specifics on that one just to try to do it. Yeah, it's true that I don't drink coffee, so.

:: 55:36:18

Pat McCalla

I didn't remember that. So. Okay. That's why I

:: 55:39:21

Ryan Brown

I don't necessarily advertise except on podcasts and things like that, but. Yeah.

:: 55:43:25

Pat McCalla

Well, that's why right before this, they said, hey, let's grab

:: 55:46:04

Ryan Brown

I.

:: 55:47:04

Ryan Brown

Went straight to a lot.

:: 55:49:28

Ryan Brown

Of.

:: 55:50:12

Ryan Brown

Like, teens fight.

:: 55:51:11

Ryan Brown

Right.

:: 55:51:25

Ryan Brown

Okay.

:: 55:52:09

Pat McCalla

So the golf thing is a complete

:: 55:54:19

Ryan Brown

fabrication.

:: 55:55:17

Ryan Brown

Yeah. Nothing.

:: 55:56:03

Ryan Brown

Nothing true about it? Yeah, I just do it. A lot of specific details. Try and do it. Yeah.

:: 56:00:25

Ryan Brown

There you go. I did with, Charles Barkley and.

:: 56:05:17

Ryan Brown

He probably would have beat me here. Yeah.

:: 56:07:27

Pat McCalla

Probably. Well, Ryan.

:: 56:09:06

Pat McCalla

Thanks so much, man. Really appreciate,

:: 56:11:18

Ryan Brown

what you did, what you shared today. Yeah, I

:: 56:14:03

Pat McCalla

encourage myself or our audience to just really take some of the things to, to heart. What a great reminder that when we talk about the power and complexity of human choice, that we have brothers and sisters around the world that right now, today

:: 56:26:23

Pat McCalla

are going to be making life and death decisions purely based on whether they're going to follow Jesus or

:: 56:32:04

Ryan Brown

Yeah.

:: 56:32:23

Pat McCalla

sobering.

:: 56:33:14

Pat McCalla

Good to remember. So thank

:: 56:34:26

Ryan Brown

Thank you. No, I appreciate just privileged to be here with you. And thank you for what you're doing. And incredible content that you're putting out to the world.

:: 56:41:02

Pat McCalla

thanks, Ryan.

:: 56:41:27

Host

What an eye opening discussion that was with one of my good friends, Ryan Brown. Don't forget to like, follow and subscribe to the No Gray Areas podcast on your YouTube channel. And if you'd like to take a next step, visit Open Doors U.S. dot org to learn more. We'll see you next time.